Quigley Down Under rifle, was it real? (Jeff Higgins?)

[scottmandue]

Just watched the movie, long story short was his rifle for real or fiction?
Thanks in advance.

[id10t]

Yup. You can even buy repros.

1874 Sharps

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/quigley-sharps-rifle-from-the-movie-quigley-down-under/

Wouldn't mind having one of the 17hmr ones CDNN was flogging recently for $900...

[Jeff Higgins]

Very real. I have held that very rifle, from the movie, in my own two grimy paws. I used to attend the annual Quigley Shoot in Forsyth, MT held every Fathers' Day weekend. Tom Selleck used to actually show up and shoot it as well.

Shilo Sharps made the movie rifle, and you can still order the same model from them. Caliber is .45-2 7/8", also know as the .45-110. This was the largest capacity .45 caliber case Sharps ever actually chambered. It was kind of late to the party, but did see some use on the buffalo plains. It was never chambered in a match rifle of any kind.

Here is my current example of the '74 Sharps, this one from C. Sharps Arms, who happen to be right across the street from Shilo Sharps, in Big Timber, Mt. Mine is a long range match rifle, built for our old 1,000 yard matches here in the PNW. It's chambered in the .45-2.6", AKA .45-100, the largest case Sharps ever used in a match rifle.



These rifles can be astonishingly accurate at long range. When we were still shooting 1,000 yard matches, we shared the range with highpower competitors, because neither group could fill fill the whole firing line. "Our" winners often shot as high of scores as "their" winners, on the same targets, under the same conditions. So, yeah, while the movie is a bit overdone, these rifles really will shoot.

[Sooner or later]

Like the gun.

Like Laura San Giacomo more.

[Baz]

Impressive, Jeff!

I love that movie.

[Jeff Higgins]

Here is a shot of the ammo used in my .45-2.6" for 1,000 yard competition. By way of comparison, on the far left is a 9mm Luger round, then a .45 ACP, then the loaded .45-2.6". On the right is the bullet. It weighs 540 grains when cast from 20:1 lead/tin. The mold for it was made by Paul Jones using Saeco mold blocks.

The load uses 90 grains of Swiss 1.5 Fg black powder, ignited by a Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primer. Bullet lube is SPG, and there is an .030" thick vegetable fiber wad between the bullet and powder. Brass is from Starline. Velocity averages 1,342 fps with only a 12 fps extreme spread for ten shots - a large part of why these are so accurate at long range.

[Reiver]

In 1877.....American Riflemen using the Sharps 'Old reliable' rifle competed against the British team in long range international competition....the Brits being considered the best the world had to offer.

The US team won hands down...Mr. Bruce scored a 219 out of a possible 225 at 1000 yards.

Messrs. Bruce, Weber and Hyde were addressed by Judge Stanton and congratulated for their excellent scoring in the two days competition.

Bruce, who made the champion score of the world, replied that "Sharps Rifle did the work, with me back of it".


From the Sharps Catalogue 1878.

My Sharps 45-70 will consistently print at 1000 yds. with a Soule Vernier sight.

[Reiver]

here...a pic

[Jeff Higgins]

From the checkering pattern, shape of the schnabel, and case coloring, I would say that's a Pedersoli. Nice rifle.

[Reiver]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

From the checkering pattern, shape of the schnabel, and case coloring, I would say that's a Pedersoli. Nice rifle.

Yes it is.... before purchase I looked at some national matches and noted how well these rifles placed....the workmanship is as good as anything produced in the States.....and more competitively priced.
I particularly like the head space for larger weight rounds.

The Vernier sight is from Lee Shaver tho...not a Pedersoli.

BTW....at the Ben Avery Phoenix range there is a yearly 'Quigley shoot' for black powder single shot rifles.....and, my friend and saddle maker Jerry Croft made the saddle in the movie and the scabbard for the Sharps....Tom Selleck invited him to LA for the Movies opening and remained a friend...the old style saddles he rides in his westerns are/were made by Jerry...he made me a fine one too (1987) and that's how we became friends. Happy Trails JJ.

https://truewestmagazine.com/saddling-up-in-style/

[sc_rufctr]

Oh dear... Threads like this are not good for my bank account

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

From the checkering pattern, shape of the schnabel, and case coloring, I would say that's a Pedersoli. Nice rifle.

My comment exactly...Italian..

[John Rogers]

Pedersoli is probable the only "mass producer" whose rifles and pistols can win world championships. An example is their Gibbs muzzle loader which I have and took me 4 years to find a copy as they tend to get sold out as soon as a dealer gets one. Mine has a Lee Shaver tang sight and globe on it although I added that.

[Reiver]

Originally Posted by John Rogers

Pedersoli is probable the only "mass producer" whose rifles and pistols can win world championships. An example is their Gibbs muzzle loader which I have and took me 4 years to find a copy as they tend to get sold out as soon as a dealer gets one. Mine has a Lee Shaver tang sight and globe on it although I added that.

Yup, I shoot with guys that own the C Sharps rifles and they admit the accuracy of the Pedersoli Sharps is the same as their rifles.

The sights are better on the C Sharps but those are easily changed....the C Sharps has many more options too and that is nice...but you pay for them.

To replicate my Rifle in C Sharps it would have cost me a couple of grand more, with no increase in accuracy.

The Italians have been making 'antique' firearms for over 70 years now that no US maker would produce.....and doing it very well. I appreciate their involvement.

[Jeff Higgins]

Pedersoli made great strides in the early 2000's as far as the accuracy of their match rifles. When they first were available, chamber, bore, and groove dimensions were all over the map and they simply could not be made to shoot. Once they started listening to shooter feedback, and got a handle on those critical dimensions, things picked up rather quickly.

One of our better shooters up here in the PNW finally wound up shooting Pedersolis exclusively in our matches as a factory rep. He did quite well with them. Their accuracy was certainly on a par with that of the the more expensive semi-custom American made rifles.

Where they fell short, however, was in the durability of the action parts. Most people would never shoot them enough to notice, but a serious competitor who puts thousands of rounds per year through one almost certainly will. Our Pedersoli rep was constantly harping on the factory about this issue. As far as I know he never convinced them to improve the materials and heat treating of those parts. In the end, we all saw him fixing his rifles often enough, and heard him complaining enough - even as a factory rep - that most of us continued to steer clear of them. In the end, as in most things, we really do get what we pay for. But, like I said, most folks won't use one enough to ever notice and, for them, Pedersoli provides a fantastic rifle at a fraction of the cost.

[Reiver]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Pedersoli made great strides in the early 2000's as far as the accuracy of their match rifles. When they first were available, chamber, bore, and groove dimensions were all over the map and they simply could not be made to shoot. Once they started listening to shooter feedback, and got a handle on those critical dimensions, things picked up rather quickly.

One of our better shooters up here in the PNW finally wound up shooting Pedersolis exclusively in our matches as a factory rep. He did quite well with them. Their accuracy was certainly on a par with that of the the more expensive semi-custom American made rifles.

Where they fell short, however, was in the durability of the action parts. Most people would never shoot them enough to notice, but a serious competitor who puts thousands of rounds per year through one almost certainly will. Our Pedersoli rep was constantly harping on the factory about this issue. As far as I know he never convinced them to improve the materials and heat treating of those parts. In the end, we all saw him fixing his rifles often enough, and heard him complaining enough - even as a factory rep - that most of us continued to steer clear of them. In the end, as in most things, we really do get what we pay for. But, like I said, most folks won't use one enough to ever notice and, for them, Pedersoli provides a fantastic rifle at a fraction of the cost.

I will probably be in the group that won't shoot it to that extend....I've only put about 400 rounds thru the gun to date.
What exactly was failing...breech block tolerances or what?
I was aware of the early accuracy issues but was also aware, prior to purchase, they had been addressed.
The steel hardening issue is info I've not heard before but it makes sense if they are not proofing to the same standard as the US rifles.

Jeff--
Do they no longer hold 1000 yard matches? Seems like they would be a lot of fun. When we all met up for drinks, your wife told me that you'd fire the gun, and several seconds would go by before you'd hear the round hit the target.

[rcooled]

Originally Posted by Baz

I love that movie.

Me too...especially that great scene near the end when Quigley faces off against Marsden and his two lackeys.

"This ain't Dodge City...and you ain't Bill Hickok"



I cringed when that Sharps was tossed away in the dirt...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Reiver

I will probably be in the group that won't shoot it to that extend....I've only put about 400 rounds thru the gun to date.
What exactly was failing...breech block tolerances or what?
I was aware of the early accuracy issues but was also aware, prior to purchase, they had been addressed.
The steel hardening issue is info I've not heard before but it makes sense if they are not proofing to the same standard as the US rifles.

It was the triggers, hammer notches, and sears (depending upon which rifle - some, like the Rolling Block, don't have a sear in the modern sense). The basic actions really don't require the best steels or the best hardening - they are so vastly over-built due to being 19th century designs that relied on shear mass rather than good metallurgy, that when constructed of modern steels of any decent quality they hold up quite well.

Originally Posted by madcorgi

Jeff--
Do they no longer hold 1000 yard matches? Seems like they would be a lot of fun. When we all met up for drinks, your wife told me that you'd fire the gun, and several seconds would go by before you'd hear the round hit the target.

The whole mid range and long range black powder match scene dried up around here over ten years ago. We used to shoot about half a dozen, maybe eight matches in this area at one time, each of them a two day match. Most were "stage" matches of 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards. Some went to 800 yards (Douglas Ridge, outside of Portland) or 800 meters (General Volks Range in Chilliwack, B.C.). We shot 1,000 yards on range number KD22 ("known distance") at Ft Lewis three or four times per year.

At 1,000 yards, we're looking at about three seconds of flight time. Long enough to drop the breech block, extract the cartridge, put it back in the box, and lean over to look in the spotting scope. If you hurried.

It was common practice to shoot into the berm off to the end of the target stands to get a rough idea of elevation before going on paper for your two sighter shots. We would just look for the "splash" in the dirt. This was the spotter's job, and to report back to the shooter if elevation looked good enough to go on paper.

We shot in teams of three. Shooter, spotter, target puller, rotating each relay. If there were any FNG's, they would be teamed with experienced shooters. One day, said FNG was spotting for me on the first relay of the day. I told hime I was shooting into the berm on the left end of the targets, and to let me know where they hit, elevation wise, relative to the targets. No sooner had I fired, he took his eye out of the spotting scope, and said "I didn't see anything". *Sigh* I saw it hit out of the corner of my eye...

So, I told him to count "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three..." before taking his eye off the scope and reporting. He was astonished... "was that really yours?" Yup...

It's kind of weird at first, pausing to consider how long the bullet is in flight at 1,000 yards. A lot can happen to it in three seconds. It's a real challenge "doping" not only the wind, but mirage at those ranges. The target isn't where it looks like it is... The "trick" was to focus the spotting scope at about 800 yards, then look through it to see which direction the shimmer - the mirage - was going. Left, right, up, down - that huge air mass between you and the target is moving, and taking your bullet with it. Fun stuff...

[sc_rufctr]

I saw the movie in a theatre at the time of release. It did really well in Australia but I suspect not so well in the US.
At the time I thought it would be a first in a series of movies.

As in Quigley, Down in Mexico etc.

Maybe they planned for that if this one had done better?