Should I be a free filing cabinet?

[Jims5543]

Sorry, this is a long one. I will see if I can do a TLDR at the bottom.

I think there is at least one other Land Surveyor on here. I am curious to see what his take on this is.

I have records going back to 1982, in 2000 I purchased an existing company and all its files.

While I never get requests for 20+ year old surveys, I do get requests for anywhere from 3 to 10+ year old surveys.

When I say requests, I should clarify, requests for free copies of the surveys on file.

While the state statutes indicate I keep my files, it does not say they are there for the free enjoyment of anyone who wants them.

At least once a week I get requests from all sources, homeowners, pool companies, fence companies, title companies, mortgage companies etc... They all want a free copy of a survey on file. If this was a once in a while thing it would not bother me, what annoys me is that I appear to be their filing cabinet.

5 Copies are delivered when an order is complete. So there should be a copy on file with the homeowner.

I have a rule, if the survey is more than 3 years old, and I think that is too lenient, I require a crew to visit the property, recover the property corners and locate any changes to the property, be it an addition, pool, fences, sheds or more concrete.

I offer a 50% discount off the original price of the survey to do this.

So many time people freak out and want a free copy and refuse to pay for the survey to be updated.

This is the incident that has me pissed and sick of giving out copies for free.

I just had an Attorney from Connecticut contact us, we surveyed a large property of hers in 2010, she pretty much threatened right off the bat to report me to the board of regulation if I did not hand over a free copy of my survey. She stated the statute where I have to keep my records and indicated she would escalate this if her request for a free copy was not fulfilled.

Not interested in getting into a war I just sent her an old copy with the 2010 dates on it.

I happened to drive past the property 1 week later then again 2 weeks later, it is along a road I take at least once a week.

She most likely handed my copy over to another surveyor for a discount, she sold the property it was empty, the property was obviously freshly surveyed the second time I drove by. I am assuming she supplied the buyers with my copy I sent her.

I do not give discounts out if you hand me and old survey from someone else, I was hired to survey the property, if you want to hand me a copy to see if we both agree fine, but I am going to survey it fully, I do not put my trust in others work, it is my license on the line I am going to do it all over again.

I just got another email at 5:15 on a Friday, a mortgage company wants a copy of a 2013 survey for free to cut down the closing costs for his client, it is actually worded like that in the email.


So, am I in business to be a free filing cabinet for every one?

Do the laymen on here think I have a lifetime obligation to a past client to provide free copies whenever they need one? Or does my obligation to them end the moment I deliver my product to them?

TLDR

People keep popping up want free copies of surveys 3-20 years old.

Should I be a free filing cabinet?

[craigster59]

Why can't you declare that surveys older than 3 years have been stored offsite and charge an administrative fee to recover the survey and provide copies? Other agencies do it all the time, and the copies are not usually very cheap.

[rwest]

I know nothing about the law, but can you charge a fee for office time, copy printing and postage?

[ossiblue]

As a layman and without reading the statute, given your information I would say you are not obligated to provide FREE copies to anyone, once the initial client has been provided the copies he has paid for. The legal obligation to keep the records for 20 years does not, as you've stated, obligate you to provide copies at all, let alone free copies. Certainly, you'd have to allow someone to access the surveys, in your office or other location, but they are not entitled to a hard copy, unless the statute states such. Again, there is no entitlement to a free copy should the statute simply state access must be available.

I think craigster59 has a fine solution. Like the mortgage company, people are looking for a cost lower than a new survey. Pricing copies of old surveys a bit lower than a new survey will either drive away the requests, make them want a full priced new survey, or make them think they are getting a "deal." Regardless, you will be paid for your time and effort if you charge enough to cover those two factors.

BTW, public records held by the government nearly always cost to get copies. Why should a private company have to eat the same costs that the government passes on to the customer? That lawyer needed to be challenged, but I completely understand the route you took--not worth the headache.

[SCadaddle]

Let me ask you this question:

"Name at least one other Profession that freely gives away their work product that was a result of a contract by two parties, to a third party and thereby extends their liability from the initial contract to the next party without compensation?"

I am guessing that the State of Florida does not have a mandatory survey/plat recording law, otherwise a trip to the courthouse or online they could get what they need without contacting you.

And that's my take as a Professional Land Surveyor.

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by craigster59

Why can't you declare that surveys older than 3 years have been stored offsite and charge an administrative fee to recover the survey and provide copies? Other agencies do it all the time, and the copies are not usually very cheap.

The attorney survey from 2010 was only in cad format. My receptionist told her it was a 9 year old survey and we would need to retrieve it from cadd.

Then the threats escalated. I learned a long time ago not to F with attorneys. If I had known she was one in 2010 I would have never worked for her.

I have a no attorneys policy if I know up front you are one I pass on the job. That is another thread.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[SoCal911T]

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

I am guessing that the State of Florida does not have a mandatory survey/plat recording law, otherwise a trip to the courthouse or online they could get what they need without contacting you.

I guess I incorrectly assumed that was how it works everywhere...


https://srs.sandiegocounty.gov/

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by Jims5543

The attorney survey from 2010 was only in cad format. My receptionist told her it was a 9 year old survey and we would need to retrieve it from cadd.

Then the threats escalated. I learned a long time ago not to F with attorneys. If I had known she was one in 2010 I would have never worked for her.

I have a no attorneys policy if I know up front you are one I pass on the job. That is another thread.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I know if I called my attorney and asked for copies from a legal matter they helped me with years ago I would be charged a significant fee,

[javadog]

I don’t know what the law would state, but presuming that the law did not prevent you from charging, this is what I would do:

The original person that contracted for the survey should get a copy for whatever handling fee you deem appropriate for your time and materials. Everybody else, and I mean everybody else, would pay you whatever higher fee you think is appropriate. They were not part of the original contract for the work, they have no rights to your work product. You can always tell them that the original survey was done for X person, and they could go get a copy from that person, if they didn’t like it.

Nothing in life is ever free, unless you want to do someone a favor.

[dad911]

FOIA.

For free, they can go to the town/county/whatever and request copies that were submitted with plans/permits or recorded mortgages.

Well, govt can charge reasonable copying charges.

[GH85Carrera]

We had aerial photos that went back to 1947. We did not do ANYTHING for free. And we would tell a customer what we had, but the only way they got to see the image was to buy a print. Everything was copyrighted. You should do the same. If a top client calls and wants a survey from a few years back, maybe give them something, but charge for every moment you spend preparing them.

You don’t do that for a hobby, and I doubt you need any practice. Be like my CPA, charge by the minute, 15 minutes minimum charge.

[cstreit]

Why not charge an "administrative fee" calculated based on how on how many years old it is?

[id10t]

Originally Posted by javadog

I don’t know what the law would state, but presuming that the law did not prevent you from charging, this is what I would do:

The original person that contracted for the survey should get a copy for whatever handling fee you deem appropriate for your time and materials. Everybody else, and I mean everybody else, would pay you whatever higher fee you think is appropriate. They were not part of the original contract for the work, they have no rights to your work product. You can always tell them that the original survey was done for X person, and they could go get a copy from that person, if they didn’t like it.

Nothing in life is ever free, unless you want to do someone a favor.

OOh.... if you get into the "work for hire" and "copyright" angle, Jim may not even be ALLOWED to distribute a copy to a 3rd party, since that would be in violation of copyright laws. And since the laws says he has to keep a copy, he can't send the only copy he has. What a shame....

[jorian]

Although statute may require you to keep copies for a certain number of years, I am certain it does not require you to guarantee the veracity of said survey beyond a certain period of time.

If I had an attorney giving me a rough time I would tell her to take a hike. The time and energy it would take her to report you to a board of regulation, have the matter investigated, ruled on and finally acted on would likely exceed the time she has on hand to deal with the reason she need the survey in the first place.

If I was somehow compelled to send out another copy of an old survey I would A) charge a fee for my trouble and B) stamp the survey with a large disclaimer stating it was out of date and not to be relied on. Whoever she gave it to would then likely ask her for a new one. The reason she needs it is likely to pass on some kind of risk.

I deal with attorneys often in my business and the vast majority are great. The ones that are pushy and arrogant I push back on. As long as my rules and ethics are intact I won't capitulate to some uppity lawyer. The pushy ones are banking on the fact that the most of the public don't want to tangle with a lawyer. They are human too. They have limited time and resources just like the rest of us.

[masraum]

I don't know the regs, but I would think that "you have to keep your records" is not the same as "you have to provide a free copy for anyone that asks."

"Yep, I've got records. A copy of one of my records costs $X."

[SCadaddle]

I can remember, very distinctly, one Land Surveyor's Continuing Education seminar that I attended where the speaker of the day said:

"Having a fire or flood destroy your records every now and then is actually a good thing."

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Jims5543

While the state statutes indicate I keep my files, it does not say they are there for the free enjoyment of anyone who wants them.

And there is your answer.

You once did a job for another client and filed that required paperwork with the city/state.
If she wants the information she can get it from public record.
Easy enough for her.
"Go pound sand".

Anyone else, as id10t noted, might not even be legally privy to your company proprietary data.
Caution.
I don't think it's legal to publicly distribute inside photos, blueprints, and pushing it a little further a full guide to some clients alarm and security systems.
(See: Streisand Effect vs. Google Maps vs. The Internet)

------------
Just as a note:
Attorneys charge professional fees by the hour with a minimum for just talking to strangers.
Next time you talk to her, why don't you stop her right there and discuss your own consultation charges before anything else is said on the phone.
Your own time is just as valuable.

And just to be a jerk:
-If you are that pissed, then you still could send her a small bill just for the principle of it all.
-She will toss. Huffy. Humph! "The nerve."
-It will go unpaid and become compounding when she doesn't bother to show up in small claims.
-Local laws may vary.
-Some "notice of service" or whatever is fulfilled by just advertising in the local legal news rags.
-Then you sell it to debt collection and sit back and laugh.

That clown attorney has already spent twice as much time and money trying to fix the original problem and is probably fried from it all.

[Dantilla]

I've found that anytime an attorney uses the fact that they are an attorney as a threat, they're a lousy attorney.

[wdfifteen]

How do they know which surveyor to contact for records of a particular property?
Everywhere I've lived a copy of every survey is required to be filed with the county. If you need a copy of the survey, you go to the county.
Not knowing your particular circumstance, I would think you could say, "I provide copies of surveys for $35, but you can get them from the county for free."

[KFC911]

^^^^ or $135 if ya really don't wanna waste yer time. As a professional courtesy....$500 for attys ....unless yer a Pelican

One and done...for that original agreement....it's over imo....but I'm not an atty....slept well last night too