Help me with my breaker box

[Pazuzu]

OK, the new house I'm renting (and going to buy, which is why I'm doing this myself) has a blown breaker. I know the previous renters, and it blew maybe 3 months ago, they just ignored it.
30 amp breaker in an ancient box which is on the outside (exposed, but in a "rainproof" box) wall of the house, circa late 50s to early 60s.
Breaker is blown, I can reset it and it makes a humming sound and trips within a second, over and over again.
I know which boxes are on this breaker from experimentation, all are along the outside wall. 2 are GFCI outlets in the kitchen, 3 are normal outlets in the living room, and 2 are outdoor, old fashioned "weatherproof" spring loaded steel door types on the outside brickwork. NOTHING is currently plugged into any of these (new rental).

Now, I basically know how to replace the breaker itself. I know how to check an outlet when there's power going to it, but I don't know how to check which of these 7 boxes is the bad one. Safe bet it's one of the outside boxes, but it also could be one of the inside GFCI boxes, which had a microwave and coffee maker and who knows what other kind of temporary but high amp equipment.

So, how do I go about this?
Go buy a 30 amp breaker, replace it and risk turning it on? Nothing is plugged in right now.
Replace the 2 outside outlets wholesale just because there's a good chance they're buggered anyways? Then what?
Replace one or both GFCI outlets because they're the most complex thing on the circuit and therefore most likely to be going haywire?
Replace everything and hope it's not wires in the wall?

Is there any sane method for checking the status of the wires and/or outlets without any power to them? I an presuming that if I just put a new breaker in that it will trip immediately, which makes testing everything else pretty hard.

[Dantilla]

Bad news.

Federal Pacific breaker panels are no good. Most lenders will not fund a mortgage until a FP panel is replaced.
If you get a home inspection, they will definitely insist the box must be changed.

[wdfifteen]

Open the boxes up, pull out the devices, and look at them.

[LWJ]

^^^sorta maybe. Insurance is the key. Mortgage not an issue. I have a crap apartment with them. We did find insurance and the mortgage didn't care.

There are fixes and work arounds. Dantilla is right though. You need to figure out which solution is acceptable before you move forward. We were given a $25k bid to redo to boxes for 12 units. Ugg.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

.....Breaker is blown, I can reset it and it makes a humming sound and trips within a second, over and over again........

Could be short/overload, drawing too much current.

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

......I know which boxes are on this breaker from experimentation, all are along the outside wall. 2 are GFCI outlets in the kitchen, 3 are normal outlets in the living room, and 2 are outdoor, old fashioned "weatherproof" spring loaded steel door types on the outside brickwork. NOTHING is currently plugged into any of these (new rental).

Above should NOT be on a 30 amp breaker. Typically 15 or 20, depending on wire size.

I suspect more is going on. Landlord should fix.

Edit: Is it possible/have you checked for Aluminum wires?

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by LWJ

^^^sorta maybe. Insurance is the key. Mortgage not an issue.

Makes sense. A friend is a building inspector. Says if he reports an FP breaker panel, it usually halts a sale until resolved.

Also- Pull an outlet or light fixture or two and see if the wire is copper or aluminum.
If copper, replace the Federal Pacific breaker panel and live happily ever after.
If aluminum, I would definitely NOT buy the house, unless the budget is large enough to re-wire the entire place.

I looked at a fixer-upper a few years ago. Had a brand new Square D panel, with neat, tidy wiring at the breakers. Noticed most of the home runs went into a large J box several feet away. Pulled the cover and found a rats nest of new copper romex coming from the breakers wire nutted to aluminum wire that ran through the house.
Yikes! Dodged bullet on that one.

[cabmandone]

IF as you mention there's nothing plugged in, the breaker is bad. It happens. I'd kill the power and check all outlets and lights to make sure you don't have an issue in the circuit.
As dad911 points out, I'd be a bit concerned that there's a 30 amp breaker on a circuit that would typically be 20 amp.

[Dantilla]

Looks like dad911 beat me to it about the possibility of aluminum.

[LWJ]

^^^aluminum wire can be used. There are special wire nuts for aluminum to copper. I forget if it is expansion or corrosion st is the problem. This is an easy thing to fix. I had it done for a client. Full insurance company buy in. Also, there are three fixes or so. Make sure you do the one your carrier approves!!!

[Pazuzu]

Ugh.

Well, the house was opened up to the studs after Hurricane Harvey, it's *possible* that someone at some point would have examined it for aluminum wires at that time, but I cannot be sure.

The inspector is a friend of ours, as is the mortgage broker, and we have a good relationship with the owner (we've been renting the second house on the property for 9 years) and his realtor (who is his rental manager, so we've meet him several times). Maybe we'll all just make this go away...


I'll have to put some time in this weekend. I plan on tossing a new breaker in one way or the other, I'll examine for aluminum wire. The house has very little value compared to the land, so it probably does not deserve a rewire if needed.

Can I ask how one knows that it should be 20 instead of 30 amps, since it has as many as 6 boxes/12 outlets connected to it? Seems like it should be bigger than 30 amps for that, but I'm thinking in common sense guy think, not residential code think.

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Can I ask how one knows that it should be 20 instead of 30 amps, since it has as many as 6 boxes/12 outlets connected to it?

The circuit breaker is to protect the wire from overheating. Unless the wire to every outlet is heavy enough to handle 30 amps (extremely doubtful) a 30 amp breaker will not trip when the smaller wires overheat.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Dantilla

The circuit breaker is to protect the wire from overheating. Unless the wire to every outlet is heavy enough to handle 30 amps (extremely doubtful) a 30 amp breaker will not trip when the smaller wires overheat.

OK, but what about when me, HappyHomeowner, plugs in 25 amps of stuff on those various outlets, unaware that for whatever reason the kitchen, livingroom and front porch are all connected.

I understand what you're saying, and I'll downsize the breaker to 20amp, but it just means that *I* need to be aware of the limitations of that particular circuit from now on, right? Hell, I used to run the electric lawnmower on that circuit, now I know that if I do that, I can't have the microwave on at the same time, or the livingroom A/V system running. I probably did damage to it by mowing the damned lawn...

[billybek]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

OK, but what about when me, HappyHomeowner, plugs in 25 amps of stuff on those various outlets, unaware that for whatever reason the kitchen, livingroom and front porch are all connected.

I understand what you're saying, and I'll downsize the breaker to 20amp, but it just means that *I* need to be aware of the limitations of that particular circuit from now on, right? Hell, I used to run the electric lawnmower on that circuit, now I know that if I do that, I can't have the microwave on at the same time, or the livingroom A/V system running. I probably did damage to it by mowing the damned lawn...

Open it up and have a look at the wire size. That will dictate what amp rating of breaker you should be using. 14 gauge = 15 amp 12 = 20 amp
Your example is exactly why all conductors/plugs etc need to be rated for the amperage of the breaker. Overheating/burning = Unhappy Homeowner.
I would second the opinion of the Federal Pacific panel should go away.
Not that big of a job if the circuits within the home are OK.

[Gogar]

I'm with WD,

I'd probably pull the outlet covers off and just see that nothing is touching the wrong stuff, especially if you have metal boxes. I'd probably start with the outdoors ones, same as you.

You'll be able to find out what kind of wiring you have when you do it.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

OK, but what about when me, HappyHomeowner, plugs in 25 amps of stuff on those various outlets, unaware that for whatever reason the kitchen, livingroom and front porch are all connected.....

The smaller breaker would protect 'happy homewner' from overloading the wiring.

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

.....I understand what you're saying, and I'll downsize the breaker to 20amp, but it just means that *I* need to be aware of the limitations of that particular circuit from now on, right? Hell, I used to run the electric lawnmower on that circuit, now I know that if I do that, I can't have the microwave on at the same time, or the livingroom A/V system running. I probably did damage to it by mowing the damned lawn...

Frankly, I don't understand why you have (3) single pole 30 amp breakers. Certainly not common, and if I owned the house, I'd want to know why.

You also have 2 double pole 40s, and a double pole 30. I assume they are for cooking, AC, and water heater. If not, perhaps some more investigation is in order.

[John Rogers]

When we had solar installed several years ago we needed a new and "modern" breaker box installed as ours (like yours) was installed when the house was made in 1960. I had labeled all the original breakers many years ago and did it by plugging in a lamp to every outlet in the house. I would open a breaker and my wife would call down to tell me what light went out. I know that is not a very technical method, but it worked well. The price for the breaker swap was $3,000 if I remember correctly and took a couple hours since the hole in the garage wall had to be cut larger. If it were me, I would replace the whole box so any chance of an electrical fire is eliminated.

[Zeke]

Let's start with the basics. A hum and an subsequent trip suggests first and foremost a direct short. This is not likely in one of the GFIC receptacles.

What I want to know is why there are so many 30 A breakers in there. Checking wire size as mentioned by others is paramount. And me thinks at least 2 of those 30A should be tied as evidenced by the hole that spans nos. 6 & 7.

Get a real electrician out there. Seriously.

[1990C4S]

Find the bad breaker, remove it and trace the wires. Black should not be grounded.

https://www.amazon.com/Amprobe-BT-120-Circuit-Breaker-Tracer/dp/B005G7SC0M/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=22HCUAD2N6I6U&keywords=wire+tracer+%26+circuit+tester&qid=1563376201&s=gateway&sprefix=wire+tracer%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1

[Pazuzu]

I talked with my inspector, and he agreed that the box needs to go before he bothers with anything else.

So, looks like I'll be bugging the landlord to fix all of this before the inspection. Too bad for him!

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Ugh.

Well, the house was opened up to the studs after Hurricane Harvey, it's *possible* that someone at some point would have examined it for aluminum wires at that time, but I cannot be sure.

The inspector is a friend of ours, as is the mortgage broker, and we have a good relationship with the owner (we've been renting the second house on the property for 9 years) and his realtor (who is his rental manager, so we've meet him several times). Maybe we'll all just make this go away...


I'll have to put some time in this weekend. I plan on tossing a new breaker in one way or the other, I'll examine for aluminum wire. The house has very little value compared to the land, so it probably does not deserve a rewire if needed.

Can I ask how one knows that it should be 20 instead of 30 amps, since it has as many as 6 boxes/12 outlets connected to it? Seems like it should be bigger than 30 amps for that, but I'm thinking in common sense guy think, not residential code think.

When was house constructed? Aluminum was only used for a short period for house wiring.

I know several electricians that can replace the electrical panel with a modern one. If you are inside City Limits, it will take an electrical permit