some have seen the truth

[944S Boyeee]

Ya island, you're right.......the big glasses/Harry Carry quote were the jist of the joke.....but the smaller picture didn't have enough "punch".

I'll re-use the smaller pic you just posted once Saddam is dead. The caption will be, "I heard the glasses survived".

Whatta ya think?

944S Boyeee

[island911]

[emcon5]

Originally posted by 944S Boyeee
World Geography/History isn't exactly the American school systems jewel.

-snip-

I could go to any state in the US and at least know where the state is in conjunction with the other states. I can at least tell you the capital, and I have a general "feel" for each state and how it is different from the other states in culture, history and overall "style". If a visitor from America came into my work, they wouldn't leave feeling rejected or ignored.

Also something that bugs me. Many Americans can't do that.

You see, we live in a world of deception. If you watch Survivor, they cut and edit the show to make you think something is happening that really isn't. Viagra is deception. Every women who wears make-up is deceiving others. People "pad" their resumes. In the early 70's - people were fooled into thinking leaded gas was ok. Older cigarette ads actually said smoking was good for you. There are fibers that "look and feel" like cotton. MacDonalds "100% pure beef" - well, we all know that not true. There was a company a few years ago that was called "Fat Free" - that was the company name - so their Yogart was "Fat Free", at least we all thought it was. "Spin Doctors" are a plenty and P.R. companies are some of the biggest companies in the world.

Are you comparing so called "reality television" and advertising to news?

You also dodged my questions. Again.

Tom

[thamlin000]

Originally posted by racea911
Come on thamlin000, you know what I am semi-jokingly implying. If the guy is that exceptional, to have figured out what the rest of us Porsche owners can't comprehend..... well nevermind, I'll let it go.

Point taken and it's kinda funny, but I see where you are coming from. I just wanted to be a smartass.

[944S Boyeee]

emcon5.....

I'm not really "comparing" reality TV/advertising to news......they are different beasts in many respects, but the end result is that WE view the finished product. I'm not saying the news is all smoke and mirrors......but those who provide the news are in control of what is reported - meaning, just because we see it on the news, doesn't always make it true. News stations don't just run out and put on everything they want - it is monitored. Jou kno wha I'm sayin'??

I'm not sure what questions I didn't answer....but if one of them was "can give an example of something deliberate that the coalition has done that isn't justified?"......well, that simply comes down to me thinking the war isn't justified (but that's a whimpy answer). I guess I'd say the support of certain groups in the Middle East. The provision of weapons and training to both Iraq AND Bin Laden (didn't the US create Al Quada to fight Russia?). The abandonment of Afghanistan after a promise was made to them before they fought the Russians. The same abandonment the US did to the Kurds after they used them to fight. THAT is why they were gassed, by the way - the Kurds supported/were supported by the US and went against Saddam (which was a good thing) and Saddam was punishing them in his sick way. These are the same Kurds who are now asking for gas masks (because they are not stupid this time), yet the US is refusing them the masks because I feel they want the Kurds to get hit again, thus making Saddam even more a monster. If the US had supplied the Kurds with masks in the first place, this "attack on his own people" would never had been such a big deal. The US Government didn't keep a promise (once again) and should step up and admit it and stop trying to blame others for the misfortunes of those they promised support to. If they are going to police these lil' bastard countries, at least do what they promised when they butt their noses in others business. Don't hand people weapons, money and military support and then pull out when the war is won, leaving them poor, desolate and feeling anger and expect them not to react or harbor hatred when you promised that you would fully support them from start to FINISH. Duh!

Let's be honest here. You asked me what would justify that gas attack. The Kurds opposed Saddam and supported America. What should people do to those who oppose them? I think every war supporter knows the answer to that. Saddam gassed them because they turned their backs on him and started supporting/being supported by the "enemy", the US. Kurds were "The US" to Saddam, there should be no suprise he gassed them. Was it right? No. Was it something that happened "out of the blue" because Saddam is nuts? No.

Like I said, let's be honest - Saddam had to test those weapons somehow if he ever planned on using them against a real enemy. How do you test weapons/drugs, etc normally? By putting it on the people. Let's be honest again, we all know the public are just a bunch of numbers to the Governments of the world. If he was going to test those weapons on anyone, why not his opposition? Makes sense to me. America kills it's own people every day. They approve drugs that shouldn't be approved (Phen, Phen, certain types of Breast Implants, etc, etc). How many times have we heard about this drug or that drug killing X amount of Americans and these drug companies get sued? It's enough. America has the death penalty, which is punishment for breaking laws. The Kurds broke one major law (don't oppose Saddam - stupid law, but it's there) and they faced the death penalty. We can only speculate how many American die each year from food additives, smokes, bad drugs, etc, etc. How many Kurds died? I'm guessing not even close to the amount who die each year in America from things the Government can prevent and if it can be prevented, the blame should lie on those who could prevent it.

I know those many not be answers to some because it makes the US look bad - but every answer can't make the US look good, sorry.

I'm so not anti-US or pro-Saddam - but I just can't sit back and watch the US Government lie and try and make it look like they are angels all the time. It takes two to tango. People don't hate for no reason and the US Government has to admit they did things to create said hatred - and it's not "living the Western Lifestyle" or "being free". America has been bad......not as bad as Saddam, not even close - but they are not smelling of roses either.

944SBoyeee

[emcon5]

Originally posted by 944S Boyeee
emcon5.....

Please, call me Tom.

I'm not really "comparing" reality TV/advertising to news......they are different beasts in many respects, but the end result is that WE view the finished product. I'm not saying the news is all smoke and mirrors......but those who provide the news are in control of what is reported - meaning, just because we see it on the news, doesn't always make it true. News stations don't just run out and put on everything they want - it is monitored. Jou kno wha I'm sayin'??

Fair enough. There is an entertainment aspect to news, and almost all the news outlets are owned by like 4 companies. I don't think "monitored" is the correct word, that kind of has a George Orwell tone to it.

I'm not sure what questions I didn't answer....but if one of them was "can give an example of something deliberate that the coalition has done that isn't justified?"......well, that simply comes down to me thinking the war isn't justified (but that's a whimpy answer). I guess I'd say the support of certain groups in the Middle East. The provision of weapons and training to both Iraq AND Bin Laden (didn't the US create Al Quada to fight Russia?)

No, we supported the Mujahideen after the Soviet invasion. The Taliban came a little later as an offshoot of this, as I understand it. Some details here. We did to the Soviets the same thing the Soviets did to us in Vietnam. In the context of the Cold War, this made perfect sense. We helped the Mujahideen by billing it as a holy war, which brought radical Muslims from all over the world. I think it is safe to say at the time we had no idea how bad an idea that was. It is also interesting to note that most of the Mujahideen fought on the side of the northern alliance against the Taliban. Bin Laden faught in Afganistan against the Soviets, but didn't create Al Queda until later, to fight Israel and western influences in Arab countries. Having American infidels being in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War is what put him over the edge completely. Some background here.

The abandonment of Afghanistan after a promise was made to them before they fought the Russians.

Exactly what did we promise them, and was this before or after the people in charge (the Taliban) started calling us the Great Satan? You know, the fine folks who without our help would be vassals of the Soviet Union.

The same abandonment the US did to the Kurds after they used them to fight.

We screwed the pooch on that one. My understanding of it is we expected after the humiliating loss in the first Gulf war, Saddam's power would be weakened to the point that he would be overthrown by the Sunni's and Kurds. Unfortunately we were wrong, and the Kurds/Sunnis took it in the ass.

THAT is why they were gassed, by the way - the Kurds supported/were supported by the US and went against Saddam (which was a good thing) and Saddam was punishing them in his sick way.

Wrong. The Kurds were gassed in March 1988. We didn't try to get them to revolt until the Gulf war in 1991, nearly 3 years later.

These are the same Kurds who are now asking for gas masks (because they are not stupid this time), yet the US is refusing them the masks

I am going to wave a preliminary BS flag on this one. I think that would make the mainstream press if it was true. Got a cite for this?

because I feel they want the Kurds to get hit again, thus making Saddam even more a monster.

You can't be serious. What is this rediculous assertation based on?

If the US had supplied the Kurds with masks in the first place, this "attack on his own people" would never had been such a big deal. The US Government didn't keep a promise (once again) and should step up and admit it and stop trying to blame others for the misfortunes of those they promised support to.

Again, this happened while we were still on relatively good terms with Iraq, even after The USS Stark incident in March of 87.

If they are going to police these lil' bastard countries, at least do what they promised when they butt their noses in others business. Don't hand people weapons, money and military support and then pull out when the war is won, leaving them poor, desolate and feeling anger and expect them not to react or harbor hatred when you promised that you would fully support them from start to FINISH. Duh!

Ok, so you are saying if we would have let the Soviets kill them off everything would be fine?

Let's be honest here. You asked me what would justify that gas attack. The Kurds opposed Saddam and supported America. What should people do to those who oppose them? I think every war supporter knows the answer to that. Saddam gassed them because they turned their backs on him and started supporting/being supported by the "enemy", the US. Kurds were "The US" to Saddam, there should be no suprise he gassed them. Was it right? No. Was it something that happened "out of the blue" because Saddam is nuts? No.

The chronology is still wrong. Even if this was the case, your argument is absurd. Following the same reasoning, it would be perfectly acceptable for the National Guard to fix bayonets and attack the peace protestors in San Francisco. After all, they are a bunch of wannabe Marxists/socialists who oppose the actions of the US Government.

Like I said, let's be honest - Saddam had to test those weapons somehow if he ever planned on using them against a real enemy. How do you test weapons/drugs, etc normally? By putting it on the people. Let's be honest again, we all know the public are just a bunch of numbers to the Governments of the world. If he was going to test those weapons on anyone, why not his opposition? Makes sense to me.

Now you are REALLY reaching. The US has Chemical weapons left over from the cold war, and so do the former Soviets, among many others I am sure. Who were all those weapons tested on? Certainly not villaiges full of women and kids.

America kills it's own people every day. They approve drugs that shouldn't be approved (Phen, Phen, certain types of Breast Implants, etc, etc). How many times have we heard about this drug or that drug killing X amount of Americans and these drug companies get sued?

Bad examples, The Phen Phen thing is a joke, both of those drugs have been safe for years by themselves. It is only when they are used in combination (which they were never tested/approved for) were there problems. As I understand it, our prescription drug approval process is one of the more difficult ones. I know there are medicines you can get in Canada (or Europe) that I can't get here.

It's enough. America has the death penalty, which is punishment for breaking laws. The Kurds broke one major law (don't oppose Saddam - stupid law, but it's there) and they faced the death penalty.

So you equate the attack on a village with nerve gas to execution of violent criminals? Wow. I don't even know how to answer that.

We can only speculate how many American die each year from food additives, smokes, bad drugs, etc, etc. How many Kurds died? I'm guessing not even close to the amount who die each year in America from things the Government can prevent and if it can be prevented, the blame should lie on those who could prevent it.

Even if your this line of reasoning made sense (which it doesn't), Nothing you listed is mandatory. All those items are choices, you choose to smoke, you choose to take drugs, you choose to get big fake boobs. Nobody is forcing these things on anyone.

The Kurds certainly didn't choose to get gassed.

I know those many not be answers to some because it makes the US look bad - but every answer can't make the US look good, sorry.

I'm so not anti-US or pro-Saddam - but I just can't sit back and watch the US Government lie and try and make it look like they are angels all the time.

So what was the lie again? I must have missed it.

It takes two to tango. People don't hate for no reason and the US Government has to admit they did things to create said hatred - and it's not "living the Western Lifestyle" or "being free".

People certainly do hate for no reason. Look at the former Yugoslavia. People hate each other there for crap that happened centuries ago. Look at Northern Ireland. Those jokers hate each other for following slight variations of essentially the same religion.
I won't even get into anti-semitism.

America has been bad......not as bad as Saddam, not even close - but they are not smelling of roses either.

So what is your point? We haven't attacked or threatened our neighbors. We don't torture dissidents. We contribute the lions share of the UN budget. We bail the rest of the world out when they have problems.

Iraq started a war, which it lost. Part of the conditions of the cease fire were limitation of certain weapons, and allow inspections. They have not complied. They had 12 years to comply, and they haven't. The UN Security councel even says they are in breach. Clinton should have done this 5 years ago when they kicked the inspectors out, but he was too busy playing hide the cigar with his intern.

Tom

[Frank B]

Everyone knows where I stand... Chaney is a clown, his company will be bankrupt by the time Bush's rule has come to an end.. so, who cares...I despise the supression of people, We should just re-write the book on IRAQ and start over after we bomb the living crap out of them.. period, there are no Innocent deaths.. there are accidents... oh there's accidents that also occur when you steal Military laundry and blow someones head off while wearing it, so a camaera man can record it and blame the original owners of the uniforms... Iraq Sucks, they can ALL kiss my a$$. that's how I feel about it.
I work with a Kurdish guy, everyday I sit and have coffee with him, he is a rug weaver, he restores antique rugs. He has told me disgusting stories of how everyone is living in fear, noone is healthy, they have horrifying living conditions there and averyone hates Hussein. This guy is so grateful to be in this country that he can't really find words to describe himself, he's intelligent is well spoken and knows what he's talking about.. He has enlightened me as to what Saddam is all about. He is worse than Hitler ever could have been, he mutilates people in the streets.. he told me of a story where a young girl refused an arranged marriage because the suitor was abusive. Well, the local authorities got wind of it and had a public mutilation. They cut her Clitorous off.. wtf!? YOu have no freedom there, women are urinated on defacted on and spit on if a man "divorces her. they also have the daily "Beatings to death" as entertainment.... it's inhumane.. those who wanted to leave have left, most of the people that are there want to live that way because they don't want the freedom to make there own decisions because they don't know how to... so, they'll probablly be grabbing guns and taking shots at our military as they're walking down the streets and will probablly wind up as Innocents that died in this war...

Frank B

[emcon5]

Just a sidebar on Canada, from The Ottawa Citizen:

Nearly 4,000 people gathered yesterday on Parliament Hill to express their support for the U.S. and its partners in Iraq. Organizers urged the crowd to sign a petition to be delivered to the prime minister.

You can read the rest of the article here:
http://www.canada.com/national/features/iraq/story.html?id=8F23DDCC-8908-43A2-9764-FFADE4373886

Tom

[944S Boyeee]

Tom.....

Thank you for the informative and insightful post. I love having any info thrown my way, as it will obviously make me a better informed. The tone of your post was very "light" and I feel you were actually talking to me, rather than lecturing or "fighting with me". This tone made me read your reply with a more open mind.

I'm glad you admitted the US has made the odd mistake in the past.....now I know I'm not dealing with someone who is too extreme in their support of everything American, which is a good thing.

I've pretty much given up trying to argue the points I support. Saddam is just TOO evil to try and argue anything against the US's actions. His evilness overrides any suspect activity by the US. My stance now is.."So what if America is trying to take over the world (or something like that) - I'd rather have them do it than say Saddam, Korea or someone else!!". I will always be watching the actions of the US Government because I really do feel there is more to the picture than meets the eye.....and no I'm not a conspiracy theorist......I just feel like something is going on in the world that perhaps the common man/women will never be privy to, something that is in development. Something that is so special. I just feel that.

So, I say - "go troops - kill that evil Saddam and his regime - take the oil, take the country, liberate the people, disarm them, do whatever the hell it is you are over here to do - I really don't give a rats ass anymore - I have bigger problems in my own house to worry about".

I will point out one thing though.......Breast Implants, smokes, drugs, etc are not our choice. Advertising - social exceptance - and the quest to be bigger and better, cooler and smoother, smarter and sexier is what the world has basically boiled down to. These factors have forced people to do things that are unhealthy, immoral and unnecessary. I don't know a lot of people who actually "choose" to smoke. People rather just keep smoking because they are addicted and justify it by making it look like they "want" to be smoking. Who in the world really "wants" to cough and choke and smell and eventually die from it?

I guess I'm just very disappointed that we live in a society where women "choose" to get implants to boost their self-esteem, when self-esteem is an inward development thing that should not be fixed with surgury. It upsets me that people of today run to the drug store for EVERYTHING when there are other solutions that don't pad the pockets of a few. I guess my questioning of things stems from the poor quality of how the world is right now and how much people are degrating into self-centered, cut-throat, vain, greedy and overall "bad" humans. I guess I'm just missing the "love" and hating the reality of how things have progressed in a world I feel could be so much better. I want solutions to THIS problem and I feel wars, foreign policies, and internationally-based processes don't really move towards this, but rather are taking away from what we should really be focussing on.

944S Boyeee

[stealthn]

Well this is heated....Tom you have some valid points, but I think they get lost in the way you pose them. Opinions and free speech are what democracy is all about, but when someone gets spoken down to because they pose an opposite opinion, it doesn't work.
I'm against the war and I hope other countries don't jump on the Iraq bandwagon and make it WWIII. This is all I'll say on this. And by the way don't insult Canada, I think the intent was to put down the US Government, not the Country or it's people.