hybrid vs EV
 

My soon to be 16yo daughter will be getting a car sometime soon (thanks dad). I live in a small northcentral WI town where it gets OMG cold in the winter...or at least has historically.

We're considering a used EV (chevy Bolt) but have not yet driven one. We drove a Plug-in hybrid C-max (energi) and I was concerned by the electric range being so short and the ICE cycling on and off constantly once the electric range was used up. That continuous on-off seems like a fundamentally bad idea compunded by the cold. She would use the car 99% of the time around town with occasional ~100 mile round trips to a near by town. I like the idea of not having another ICE to maintain but of course no battery lasts forever.

Thoughts or experiences?

pro's and con's to both:

The EV will suffer in extreme cold that leaves the possibility of her not judging her range and running out. Unfortunately its not a quick trip for dad with a gas can to save her. The reduction in maintenance would be a big plus if she is not near enough for you to do the DIY stuff regularly.

The hybrid doesn't come with as much range but less anxiety at the same time. You'll have to maintain the ICE engine but the pro's are it's there if needed. The engine doesn't cycle on/off once batteries and drained, it simply takes over and powers the car until the batteries are recharged, just like any normal 4 banger does.

With mostly around town usage an the occasional longer trip, I would lean towards the hybrid until the charging network substantially reduces time to charge and expands chargers.

Why not buy a smaller car that gets good fuel mileage (Civic, Corolla, Impreza)? Are you only focused on something 'green"?

I'd like her to have something that meets 99% of her needs and saves me 99% of the headaches. I understand it's a tall order but I try to buy right once instead of mediocre repeatedly if possible. That said, I do regularly watch for a low investment low mileage cars.

I also seem to recall the Chevy Volt using an ICE that only charges the battery so that would eliminate a CVT transmission to worry about. Can anyone here speak to that? I'm not sold on CVTs yet.

I feel your pain brother! I'm hunting for a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla simply because they last... forever.. Not sure you'll be able to say the same for EV or hybrid. If you're stuck on EV or Hybrid you might as well go with the king of the hybrids, even though they are horrible looking IMO, and get a Prius. :eek:

Personally I would never put my young daughter/driver into something as limiting as an EV. New drivers are not equipped to make good judgement calls on range and conditions. Could be a game changer in WI winter right? For your hybrid vs ev poll I would vote for the Chevy Volt or similar (hybrid). But honestly, I would be on 911boost's path, a decent used IC econobox.

Looking at Consumer Reports the 2018 Bolt has a higher reliability rating than the 2017. Both years rate poorly for comfort.
Ford Cmax 2018 was the best year for reliability, 2017 the worst, with 2015/16 rating about middle of the road for reliability. The 2015 scored the lowest for comfort.

The 2012/2013 Honda Civic hybrid rates very well for reliability but very low for comfort but is a CR "recommended" vehicle.
The 2017 Accord hybrid rates well for reliability and middle of the road for comfort.

If there's anything I can lookup for you, just let me know.

pavulon, do you have a circuit in your house to recharge her car in a reasonable time (assume EV, not plug-in hybrid)? I put in a 50 amp circuit for future EV use.

I’m leaning towards 911boot’s / JavaBrewer’s recommendation to go with an efficient ICE car, since you live in the great white north. If your daughter is very diligent for a 16yo, then the Bolt might be the ticket. You might need to find out what it’s typical battery range is in the winter.

I forgot about the Hondas. Thanks cabmando! However, being in a small town is a bit limiting from a "have an import that needs to be fixed" standpoint and possibly similarly so from an EV or hybrid position.

As for range, we're primarily talking about ~10 miles on 99% of days. My detached and heated garage was built in 2003 and has service that will support a kitchen oven. How would I determine the Amp svc? (sorry, I'm not an engineer or electrician:()

Do you have a 220V outlet?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1565119862.jpg

Definitely.

Why not a sub $7000 used Prius? Get AAA if you're really concerned about breakdowns. Maintenance is pretty easy and light on them.

take a look at the IIHS safety ratings - YOUR daughter! so that is job 1; if they are high and identical then revisit the EV vs. hybrid question

Again, right there with ya man! Part of the reason I've focused on the Civic and Corolla is they just don't seem to have a lot of mechanical issues, at least in the regular gas powered cars.

Another option for your area would be the Subaru Crosstrek hybrid. If that one sparks your interest I can check CR to see how they do as far as reliability.

I have some friends who live in Madison. We were talking last week and they find that using the heater in cold weather dramatically reduced the cars range. This led them to having to stop to warm up and drive with the windows freezing up in order to get to their destination.

I believe their trip was about 100miles. This seems like a significant safety risk that would not happen in a hybrid or ICE car.

The gas engine in the Prius will run when the heater is on, it has to, so don't worry about the on and off.

All good input so far fellas!

An advantage of a plug-in where you live is that she can use house current to pre-heat/de-ice the car before she leaves the house. That was one of the things I loved most about my Volt when it had to sit out.

I think that EV's get much higher scores on the SJW virtue signalling scale.

...so there's that.

fify

Buy a Prius. I owned one for a year until a reckless driver hit me and totaled it. Great car. And, also had a higher safety rating than a Camry according to my insurance agent

My brother had to replace the windshield in his Prius and it was $1500

Out here, a new Bolt can be had for up to $20K off. CA example, tax rebates would be different in WI. My point is, don't pay too much for a used one. I sold my 1.5 year old Volt for more than I could have gotten a new one for.

Purchase Option - Bolt
$43,510 MSRP
-$6000 Dealer Discount! ($5,500 without supplier pricing)
-$6500 Factory Rebates
-$1,500 GM lease to purchase rebate (or $500 for Non-GM lease)
Total savings - $14,000
$29,510 No-Brainer Net Price

-After Purchase (if you qualify)
-$2,500 cvrp (income requirements)
-$800 PG&E (PG&E customers)
-$3,750 Federal tax credit (based on tax liability)
$22,460 Net cost !

My wife’s thinking of getting a Volt or Bolt. This all looks pretty interesting.

^ sending you a PM, Jim

I believe the Volt was discontinued?

Thanks Steve!

Scott, you’re right, although there may be new 2019 models still on dealer lots.

The sedan body is discontinued in 2019. It will be replaced by a Voltec powered crossover. They discovered the problem with Volt isn’t the electro-mechanical Voltec system, it’s the lack of interest in sedans.












S

Why not consider the Hyundai
Ioniq? It's available as HEV, PHEV, and EV
Personally for such short journey's( with occasional long ones) the PHEV will hardly ever require petrol as even in cold weather it will easily do 20 miles daily on battery alone.
The HEV( which I have was bought specifically to do long journeys and in summer does 30mpg more than my old Focus diesel and in winter about 15 mpg more. It's roomhy comfortable, with a big hatchback trunk.
The HEV and PHEV have 6 speed double clutch auto but always start from rest in electric so that spares the clutch somewhat from overheating by lazy idiot drivers who hill hold on the gas.
5 year warranty as well.
The Kia Niro SUV has the same running gear but is 10. mpg less economic because of the less good aerodynamics

As mentioned before, make sure the heater will work well with whatever model you consider.

Similar ideas in our household. New driver coming into the fold. Not interested in driving a manual (shock!) and likes the ideas of electric power.

Then again, 16 year old drivers wreck cars.. How much do you want to spend? (this is why, for me, a cheap ICE in the 10 year old range is likely going to be our starter car for driver #3)

ok.. back to the issue at hand:
1) Hybrids - best of both worlds as commuter cars. They use almost no gas in stop and go. They get good overall range (400+ miles/tank). Prius, Civic, some others too.. Cmax, Fusion, Sonata etc. Everyone seems to make one.

2) PHEV - as noticed, too short pure electric range. But, given the climate, car will always have range. Plug in/Recharge not required to use the car (dad, I forgot to charge it last night). Volts seem to have the most range... older ones, 30ish electric miles, the new ones (soon to be discontinued) about 50 miles electric. Be sure to read up on them as to how they interact with the battery. Some recharge the battery but I think some just simply go pure ICE. Each maker seemed to have their own approach.

3) Pure electrics. Older are limited in range - 50-100 miles. Focus, Golf, Leaf, BMW i3 etc.

New electrics - Leaf (150 miles) Bolt (200 miles) and Tesla 3 (up to 300 miles) are actually good "cars" that just need to be charged.

And that leave the charging issue.. Where would the car be charged away from home? Is there local charger support? For instance, our nearest Trader Joes has some chargers available. There are apps showing where public and private chargers are. Will it only charge at home? Obviously, as a 3rd or more car, there are other options if needed?

Key point. When you say a cheap ICE though, I get the impression you're risking the loss and not getting comp/collision insurance. If you're getting full insurance, than there are more options, I think.

I think safety should be a high priority, especially with new drivers. Safety costs money, especially if you're talking hybrids and EVs. I know there's lots of alternatives and nuance in safety, etc, but I like Volvo CPOs. The cars didn't really hold their value that well, but that's a good thing when buying used. A Volvo CPO will have a 5 year/unlimited mileage warranty from its original sale date, but it can be extended up to 5 more years with either 100K or unlimited total miles. Not cheap, but worth it.

We faced this with my niece, who was looking for a used RAV4 type of car and AWD. Her parents and I concluded the best option for her was a Forester lease. With about $1,000 out of pocket, she's driving for about $171/mo plus tax. For a relatively safe car with the latest safety technology, warranty, and minimal maintenance, it seemed hard to beat. Of the Japanese economy cars, I think Subaru is at the top of the pack safety wise.

A nice thing about leasing is you don't suffer any diminished value if the car is in an accident (as long as it's repaired properly).

I'm with Steve on safety. I look for the safest car with the best reliability.

Right, people only buy SUV's now I hear.

Our priority for our kids, when they became of driving age, was safety and reliability. IMHO with those short trips, fuel economy is less important. We bought a used Jetta, made it through 2 kids, never let us down.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/safe-vehicles-for-teens#best

Whats funny about that is it's self fulfilling prophecy...people will only buy SUV's when there are only SUV's to buy!

Insurance wasn't the concern. Safety is a very personal thing in some ways. back in the 1980's, my first car was a 914. Overall, a horrible choice when it comes to safety. But I lived through it just fine. My brothers first car a few years before me was a Mercedes. He died in a non spectacular (ie, not speeding, drugs, on a phone etc) car accident. There are no guarantees here folks.

By a cheap ICE car, I merely meant a 10 year old Civic/Jetta etc. Heck, even a 10-15 year old Mercedes is a safe car. And cheap.. $3-5K.. cause its disposable. My original plan was to keep my 13 year old, 220K mile Jetta for my boys, but the car had other ideas with growing issues that rendered it useless for its current use, let alone keeping it around for them.

Sorry for getting off track.

As to lasting long, I've ridden in several Prius cabs, all with original batteries, with HUNDREDS of thousands of miles on them. They certainly last. The long term issue is when the batteries erode to about 70 or percent charging capacity, its time to replace. And in hybrid instances, its likely the same cost as replacing a motor. $2500 or so. From the factory, a prius has an 8yr or so warranty.

I wouldn't worry about the ICE cycling on and off in cold climates. These cars are winter tested for thousands of miles.. and there are so many out there now that owners and manufacturers have learned about any issues.

I see safety as a legitimate angle on the conversation!

there's that little Fiat or e-Fiat

a guy here loves the ones he has for his business

(he's a 944 owner tho)

Safety first. Right behind it is how much you trust the 16 yo to properly monitor the batteries on an EV. Remember that older batteries lose their charge capacity so an older hybrid or EV may have even less range.

While you're looking at all the info, check with your insurance agent and see what the cost of an EV versus ICE is. Be prepared to pay heavily for all your vehicles when there is a 16 yo driver in the family.