Will the Real twin Cam Come forward ? - Page 2

HardDrive · 08-23-2020, 09:08 AM

LOL!

Oh look, HD garden gnomes:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/shop/c/goods-garden-gnomes

Nostril Cheese · 08-23-2020, 09:24 AM

Harley guys seriously call them twinks?

Along with the leather and unbalanced 45 degree engines... This explains so much

afterburn 549 · 08-23-2020, 09:33 AM

If triumph (and lot others) can make sell a bike @ profit this side and slightly tp the other side of 20K-
it would seem HD could make a bike including bearings rather than taking the sleazy cheap way out.

Looking at the New Rocket 3 -is 3 cylinders, H20 cooled shaft drive and 22K!

Pretty SNAZY!

Harley with their Ivory Tower objective lost their way when they got rid of the V Rod Platform.
Willie had them all set up for the up and coming generation.
The Skinny Jean crowd wants nothing to do with tractor parts.
They are not caught up in history and in fact, most fo them don't know anything about the Second World war!
They have a zero for allegiance to America, patriotism or Nostalgia .

Had HD kept the Vrod and expounded on it they would have a couple other platforms or even different ones to choose from.
They sold their heart and soul to make the last couple bucks on the ageing V twinn.
Now they have blank faces and no sales and a huge gap in marketing.
IDC if they live or die, it is just sad to see how members, not owners, can direct a company dwn the road to suicide.

HardDrive · 08-23-2020, 01:22 PM

I think they are right to go after the electric bike market, but a $30k halo bike is not going to make inroads with the kids.

And don't me going on the 'Street'....wtf is that monstrosity supposed to be?

I actually really like todays Sportys. The 48 is cool.

HardDrive · 08-23-2020, 01:25 PM

Harley's biggest threat for the future may be those rentable electric scooters all you see all over college campuses. Many kids don't want to own vehicles, and that applies to motorcycles as well. Same with Uber.

afterburn 549 · 06:12 PM

My point is -Unless the presiding stockholders don't take off their Ivory crowns real soon they will not have a table to convene at.
Too may people can crank out an electric bike overnight. The new generation does care whose logo is on the side of it.
We old guys will gargle with Bull shet with hornets in it B4 we get on such a vehicle.

svandamme · svandamme's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostril cheese

harley guys seriously call them twinks?

Along with the leather and unbalanced 45 degree engines... This explains so much

+1

afterburn 549 · 08-25-2020, 06:14 PM

It is an ardent term for them ...Not at all what you are trying to imply.
Twink is short for twin Cam.

svandamme · svandamme's Garage

well

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=twink

And it's been on Southpark, so it's valid :P

afterburn 549 · 08-26-2020, 03:46 AM

Well for sure the twink does not take near the testosterone to start it as an old kicker will!.

In fact any idiot can operate the more modern cycle.
Gone are the days when the WW2 guys road the real hardtails with no rear springs at all, and kick it to start or just dont go.
They had to make the things work!
Now the riders cant even check the air in the tires.
Pretty sad.
In the 70s we as group could do everything and it was a pretty good click.
To my surprise, not everyone was / is that way!
Nowadays,- it is talk about the wax they use.
A zero for mechanical knowledge, very disappointing. (most)
They have not a clue , none what so ever.
SO maybe they are Twinks....in some respects , not all, but for sure they are shallow at the hobby.
They for sure are a bore to talk to.

Jeff Higgins · 08-26-2020, 04:01 PM

One of the oldest Harley traditions is for riders of older models to denigrate riders of newer models as being somehow inferior. I guess it makes them feel better about themselves. If you ride a Panhead, Shovelheads are no more than AMF "bowling balls". If you ride a Shovelhead, they were the last "real" Harley. Evo riders try to convince us that Twinkie riders are no more than a bunch of clueless RUBs who don't know a spark plug from a spoke wrench. And of course now they all think the Milwaukee Eight is the biggest "POS" Harley has ever made.

I well remember all the fun we had when the Evos came out...

Stereotypes and generalizations contribute nothing worthwhile to the discussion. I know (and ride with) plenty of guys who could completely disassemble and repair their Twinkies on the side of the road with the tools in their saddlebags. I know (and ride with) Evo riders who still have their bikes dealer serviced, and can't top off their own oil when out on a ride. And vis versa.

The only real delineation I have seen is when we get back to the Shovelhead, Ironhead, Panhead, and older model riders. By the very nature of those machines, one absolutely must be a competent mechanic to even dare ride one. It was when the Evos came out that Harleys finally got reliable enough that anyone could ride one and keep one around. That's when the RUBs starting flocking to them in droves. It hasn't been the same since...

afterburn 549 · 08-26-2020, 04:07 PM

quote- It hasn't been the same since...

Yup aint that the truth

asphaltgambler · 08-27-2020, 04:03 AM

I think this discussion has gone off into the ditch. I agree with a few of the technical and marketing points above, I'm not in with the rest of the stereotype. If the Evolution engine had not happened, with chassis improvements, rubber mounted drivetrains when the did, HD wouldn't be here today. As far as the RUBS, if it wasn't for their huge $$$$ into the sport, especially aftermarket high- performance parts HD wouldn't be here today either.

Jeff Higgins · 08-27-2020, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asphaltgambler

I think this discussion has gone off into the ditch. I agree with a few of the technical and marketing points above, I'm not in with the rest of the stereotype. If the Evolution engine had not happened, with chassis improvements, rubber mounted drivetrains when the did, HD wouldn't be here today. As far as the RUBS, if it wasn't for their huge $$$$ into the sport, especially aftermarket high- performance parts HD wouldn't be here today either.

I could not agree more. To me, it's a wonderful sport and all are welcome, regardless of what they ride. it's more important that they ride... I can not imagine where our sport would be today without that massive influx of new riders, of guys and gals who simply could not - or would not - put up with the old machines. Our voice has grown because of them, both as far as what the market now demands with regards to reliability and performance, and with regards to our position in the political and regulatory worlds. We are in a better place now than when I started riding. A much better place.

And yes, Harley simply had to improve to survive. I, for one, am quite happy with the improvements made during my lifetime. Riding my '76 XLCH hot-rod one day, then my '13 Road King the next, serves as a very real reminder, to me, of just how far they have come.

HardDrive · 08-27-2020, 06:37 AM

Can someone summarize the technical side of this for a person who might be considering a used HD?

What years constitute EVO vs Twin Cams?

What are the known technical flaws with the Twin Cam that should be addressed?

afterburn 549 · 08:05 AM

As the years went past Harley deleted more and more bearings and bushings, to the point of even getting rid of small end rod bushings!
YIKES!
They even got rid of the huge timken on the crank end!
Something that worked well for HD for a forever (this alone caused huge problems)
The engine became a bean counter wet dream.
However, the aftermarket has made good with Harley pressed cranks crap, with known scissor prblems.
(out of phase)- where one flywheel is not correctly on top of the other if they were that close but seperated by the crank pin.
Also-
The run out of the crank and TIR has created an industries of its own!
The old 5 pice cranks never had these problems!
Between Harley and aftermarket, there is prolly a 1/2 a dozen cures for their silly cam plates.
Chains, gears, belts, clear covers to moniter the didaster, etc etc
The Cranks develop or come with all sorts of allowable runout now compared to the 0.003 in the beginning.
The geared oil pumps get wobbled around so much they chew th inside of thier surface cannibalizing themselves!
The inner cams bearin ends get all ate up too
Now some people get the lucky with one here and there or have few miles on it and theink they have A WINNER.
I know jeff will refute all this, But there are several Harley shops here (as there) .
One can walk in any of them and always find a twin cam with the cam chest or more being fixed on the operating table .
TOO another thought harley tourted the twin cam a BE the "All that" in their marketing. Anything with a single can was just that old and an antique.
Gues what?
Thier newest engine the M8 went back to one cam!
Argh argh argh
Next-
At some pont harley will/ would, could have made it to the adjustable varible cams for the twink-But S&S did it for them ! LOL
Shall i go on?
So the twink can be made bullet proof with the right stuff.
This includes a welded crank ! with near zero run out.
No worries -the Evo came with a few problems too!
like th e round rather then tapered pinion end on the crank .
From the University of Hard knocks I can tell you that little fingernail end of a key will not hold a large bump stick with Hipo springs !
The extra force will shear it off! (and the cam timeing cause a small conflict in piston to valve area...)
There is really only one cure as that tiny nut that holds the cam drive gear in place just won't do it .
Shall I go on?
PS i used to work in a HD shop in my younger dumber days ...And true, some problems come from customrs themselves.
In closing here -No manufature that wants his pruduct to work well will delete bearing and bushings just to save a dang panny here and there.
Yet Harley has done it along with the other travisties of death wobbles .
We just had a fatality on the freeway here -Brand New bike as in under 500 miles. Witnesses say "death wobble" an into the guardrails.
Petty sad.

Go for it Jeff.

Jeff Higgins · 08-27-2020, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Can someone summarize the technical side of this for a person who might be considering a used HD?

What years constitute EVO vs Twin Cams?

What are the known technical flaws with the Twin Cam that should be addressed?

The only issues the Twin Cam ever had were in the first few years with the rear cam bearing. H-D offered a free fix for it, effective as long as the original owner owned the bike, and for 40,000 miles regardless. I believe the issue was fixed for good by about '03 or '04. Any 96 or 103 cubic inch bike will be just fine, and any 88 inch bike with the updated rear cam bearing will be just fine as well.

Other than that, there have been no issues. My story is not uncommon - I have several riding buddies who have gone well over 100,000 miles with no issues, and stories of 200,000 trouble free miles on Twin Cams are quite common.

And no, H-D did not eliminate the small end rod bushings nor the big end roller bearings. The camshafts are supported on one end with a roller bearing and on the other with a bronze bushing - this has been H-D practice for years. My '76 Sportster has the same arrangement. It's nothing new. H-D have not eliminated any bearings or bushings, as this unfounded internet rumor indicates.

H-D did, in fact, open up the tolerances on the Twin Cam crankshaft runout. They only did this after having determined that their previous tolerances were unnecessarily tight, leading to increased manufacturing costs for no gain whatsoever. Of course every independent (read: can't get a job at a dealership) mechanic, every amateur mechanic with a Youtube channel, every self proclaimed "expert" on every H-D forum on the internet has decried this move because, well, you know - they know better than H-D engineers. It has proven to be an absolute non-issue.

The bottom line is the Twin Cam has proven, in 20 years of use since its introduction, to be the most robust, trouble-free, most durable platform they have ever produced. I would buy any well maintained, "adult owned" example without any worries whatsoever. There simply are no "known issues" outside of the cam bearing discussed above.

asphaltgambler · 08-27-2020, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Can someone summarize the technical side of this for a person who might be considering a used HD?

What years constitute EVO vs Twin Cams?

What are the known technical flaws with the Twin Cam that should be addressed?

More to your question, anything Evo is now long in the tooth, but cheap. Twin cam has been around long enough that those should be below market as well. The new engine is the Milwaukee 8 and that is a few years old. Unmodified performance-wise of any of these engines are the best bet if you're in the market.

afterburn 549 · 08-27-2020, 12:30 PM

Jeff, I just double-checked- Yup, no wrist pin bushing about 2006 and forward.
Don't kill me, I researched this from an out post-repair shop that does unofficial Harley Repairs.
The rods with the weird taper at what would have been the bushing area are the ones, albeit they dont have too many roblems because of their lack.
Still No bushing there.

The no timkins, out of phase cranks, and endless cam plate problems are real.
You may have escaped the bullet.
I am happy you did.

asphaltgambler · 08-27-2020, 12:57 PM

Real easy to skew dyno numbers by manually inputting’ ‘corrected’ ambient air temp, atmospheric air pressure, when the load comes in, run the bike in 4th gear instead of 5th, etc.

If I remember correctly there was a company called Davinci that essentially sold a part to install in S&S carbs that looked similar to a Holley carb Venturi fuel discharge ‘ring’. It was garbage as it severely disturbed / blocked air flow. To prove it made more HP they posted the dyno chart in the magazine ad. At the bottom the air temp correction was like 30 degrees F.