Visiting Vimy and Westvleteren

[Won]

On our latest drive through France-Germany-Belgium, we stopped in Vimy to see the Canadian memorial. I remember studying Vimy Ridge in high school, as being one of the significant moments in Canadian history. It was good to see official Canadian signs in France, and the two national flags flying side by side. One thing that did annoy me was that people who were there were laughing and making jokes - including those wearing the official gear. I just remember war memorials in America being much more sombre places. I guess at some level we need to move on and view it as a "celebration of life/memory" type thing. But it didn't sit too well with me.

What appeared to be grassy meadows surrounding the memorial are in fact old trenches and shell craters. The warning signs are a reminder that the legacy of conflicts still lives on somehow. Looking at all the farmland that surround this area, it's not hard to imagine they'll continue to find things well into the future. As a matter of fact, on the same trip, our friends in Frankfurt were telling us about the evacuation of 16000 people this summer to defuse a bomb they found near the city centre.

















On a more upbeat note. For our final stop of the trip, we visited the Sint Sixtus abbey in Westvleteren to collect 2 crates (maximum allowed) of Westvleteren 12. We left Frankfurt at 7AM and drove straight to be able to arrive inside the pre-arranged 30-minute collection window. But if you know about this beer, you would agree it was worth it... Or was it? I don't think there can be such a thing as the best beer in the world, rather best Trappist, or perhaps best ale... But it is damn good beer. I shared a few bottles with friends and colleagues, (in my mind) in keeping with the brothers' desire for people to be able to try their beer. Best beer or not, I feel lucky to be able to experience the whole thing in person, and pay €2.50 per bottle, including deposit, at the Abbey instead of having to source it in the grey market. Unfortunately the cafe/gift shop was closed, so I didn't get to try their Blonde and 8. Maybe next time.

[billybek]

One of these days I am hoping to have the opportunity to visit Vimy Ridge.
I would also like to visit my grandfather's brothers grave at the Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery.

Thanks for the great photos.

[MRM]

My son and I spent several days at Vimy Ridge last October on our tour of the Western Front during the centenary observance. We found the battlefields, museums and monuments to be as moving as you described. We didn’t see anyone we thought acted inappropriately or disrespectfully. The locals and tour guides all asked if we had a family connection to each battlefield we visited or if we had ancestors in the war. In the Canadian sector, such as Vimy, we were often taken for Canadians. We assured them that we were From Minnesota and we’re at least first cousins to the Canadians. All we met seemed genuinely grateful for the American involvement in the war and appreciative of our visit and sharing their commemoration. It was a very sobering and excellent experience.

The monument at Vimy Ridge appears on the surface to be marital and almost glorifying the dead, if not the war. But closer examination shows it contains substantial pacifist imagery. Memorials were quite controversial after the war because they were apt to be used by the powers that got us into the war as a justification for the war and a whitewash of history. The person who designed the Vimy Ridge Memorial became a pacifist after his experience in the war and wanted the memorial to reflect a desire for peace as a memorial to the dead, not a glorification if the battle, even while creating a monument that was grand enough to appear martial.

[jcommin]

In 2014 I brought back a 6 pack of Westvleteren for a friend. Paid about 80 Euro for it.
I took one of the beers - I'm not a beer drinker and wasn't impressed. What is more staggering are asking prices of the empty bottles found on ebay from $4-$6 dollars US.

I have a bottle w/cap if anyone is interested.

[GH85Carrera]

I have never had any Westvleteren or Pappy Van Winkle. I suspect much of the hype is the limited production and high price. I can get the Erdinger Dunkel and I think it is the perfect beer.

I recently watched the movie They shall not grow old, and it is comprised of real footage of WW1 trench warfare and conditions. It is mostly digitally remastered into a color footage, and has the real comments from the men that lived it. Very sobering.

My history knowledge of WW1 and WW2 of the Allies losses is sadly lacking. The history I was taught in school is all that the USA had to save the war effort and did all the fighting. Obviously we were essential for the victory over evil, but we did for sure did not do it all on our own.

[astrochex]

Originally Posted by jcommin

In 2014 I brought back a 6 pack of Westvleteren for a friend. Paid about 80 Euro for it.
I took one of the beers - I'm not a beer drinker and wasn't impressed. What is more staggering are asking prices of the empty bottles found on ebay from $4-$6 dollars US.

I have a bottle w/cap if anyone is interested.

Thank-you, Won, for the reminder that the blood from many nations contributed to freedoms we enjoy today. That is a beautiful memorial.

Fwiw, said beer is available online at https://www.westvleterenbeers.com/shop. Pricey stuff.

[Won]

Erdinger Dunkel was my beer of choice while living in Germany!

Originally Posted by astrochex

Fwiw, said beer is available online at https://www.westvleterenbeers.com/shop. Pricey stuff.

I'm pretty sure that website has nothing to do with the official Sint Sixtus Abbey. Officially, the only place you can buy their beer is through their beer sale (now online instead of "beerphone" but still with great difficulty), or in the cafe run by the abbey directly across the street. The price of a crate works out to be €60 (vs. €295 on this website) including the deposit for the pallet + bottles. The cafe sells 6 packs at a slightly higher price, I think around €30. The brothers are explicit in their wish for this beer to be only available through these outlets. I don't think it has much to do with artificially driving up the demand - it's already there. As you can see, if they decided to increase production and sell online, they can easily undercut the grey/black market sellers and still make much higher profit than what they're getting now. I understand they officially exported to the US and Canada for their fundraiser round, and some shops still seem to be selling these, but not this website. I get that when you mix demand and scarcity, a black market is bound to exist, but still pisses me off. If any of you come my way I'll gladly offer you a bottle at cost! Definitely can't give these away for free

On the topic of memorials. Even though I have no personal connection owing to the fact that I'm a 1.5th generation naturalised Canadian, it still struck me hard just how many names there were, and how young most of them would have been when they were killed. I think the Hollywood depiction of WW1/2 left me with a rather "romanticised" idea of the conflicts, which I admit is shameful. More recent productions seem to do a better job of showing the reality (still just guessing). It certainly gives me a new perspective when I see these sites and read the names. I'm grateful for all those who sacrificed everything and those who continue to do so.

Another couple of places we've visited that's significant in Canadian history: Dieppe and the Menin Gate in Ypres. One day I will do a proper tour of Normandy.

[astrochex]

^Thanks for the heads-up about proper channels. I like to buy from the source if I can.

[GH85Carrera]

Try to track down and see the movie "They Shall Not Grow old" is is a very sobering telling of the experiences of the men of Great Brittan for WW1. Real archival footage, so no actors playing the parts.

[kevin993]

Thanks for posting. Appreciate being able to see the history. We've been to the gift shop/cafe and enjoyed the beer very much but clearly have more stops to make in the area on a future visit.

[Jeff Alton]

Thanks for posting Won, super cool!

On another note, congrats on what will be another championship!

Cheers

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by Won

On the topic of memorials. Even though I have no personal connection owing to the fact that I'm a 1.5th generation naturalised Canadian, it still struck me hard just how many names there were, and how young most of them would have been when they were killed. I think the Hollywood depiction of WW1/2 left me with a rather "romanticised" idea of the conflicts, which I admit is shameful. More recent productions seem to do a better job of showing the reality (still just guessing). It certainly gives me a new perspective when I see these sites and read the names. I'm grateful for all those who sacrificed everything and those who continue to do so.

Thanks for sharing that, I have some reading to do now.

I found this great Instagram feed where he posts a picture and then typically a journal entry or letter to home from soldiers that were in WW1/2 and other conflicts.

https://www.instagram.com/zulufucxs/

A couple of examples. The pictures can sometimes be gruesome

.

I was drinking coffee when the fighting started. I picked up my machine gun and we went to the front. I arrived at the top of La Couture, but only one soldier had accompanied me. His nickname – they called him – was “Malha Vacas”. There we were, behind a house that was burning. Everything was on fire. To that soldier I said: “Look, our battalion has ran away. Let’s get out of here." Poor fella, could barely run. He moved about 10 meters when a grenade hit him and pulverised him. The Germans started advancing over the fields of La Couture. The fields were crowded with people. On the front line they came dressed as Portuguese. They had captured our soldiers and were using their uniforms. I opened fire and the invaders fell. An hour later another invasion. Again I opened fire, before they could even reach their previous position. A machine gun fires a lot. But later, another invasion came. It wasn’t as big. I cut it down too. I didn’t see Germans after that." – Aníbal Milhais, 2nd Inf. Div. Portuguese Exp. Corps, Flanders, Belgium, April 9, 1918.

The [captured German] trench was an abomination—a charnel house—with dead piled upon dead, on the ground where you walked, above the parapets, in the walls of the trench, half buried, with either their headssticking out or their feet or their hands or their knees …

In the end, one gets used to living beside corpses, or “maccabees,” as we call them. They not only cease to make us uncomfortable, but they even make us laugh. Beyond the parapet there were two or three corpses, in the drollest attitudes. One looked as if hewere invoking Allah, another was in the midst of a back somersault. One of my [soldiers] hung his canteen to a foot that was projecting over the wall; the others laughed and followed his example. The true French spirit was to the fore—an extreme adaptability, and above all, good humor.

The odor of the corpses was nauseating, but pipes soon got the better of it. Meanwhile, shells and grenades kept pouring in on us. We were obliged to use the greatest care, and keep as near the side of the trench as possible. The shells were not very dangerous when they fell in the mud, for they either did not burst at all, or they exploded without much force; but when they went from one end of the trench to the other and landed farther on, they were indeed deadly. Toward noon a messenger came to bring orders from the captain. He was standing in front of me, nearly up to his waist in mud. Suddenly he was without a head; he tottered but did not fall; two streams of blood spurted violently from the headless body and bespattered me. It is hard sometimes not to have theright to have feelings; my men were all around me and I did not want them to see me blanch. I simply told them to cover his body with a tent sheet that was lying near, and sent word to the captain.

These various shocks hardened me. After that, I was more or less indifferent to the terrible things that happened. I even ate with good relish in the company of the head that was sticking out of the trench. –LIEUTENANT RENÉ NICOLAS, FRENCH 4TH ARMY, PERTHES, FRANCE MARCH 1915

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I have never had any Westvleteren or Pappy Van Winkle. I suspect much of the hype is the limited production and high price. I can get the Erdinger Dunkel and I think it is the perfect beer.

I recently watched the movie They shall not grow old, and it is comprised of real footage of WW1 trench warfare and conditions. It is mostly digitally remastered into a color footage, and has the real comments from the men that lived it. Very sobering.

My history knowledge of WW1 and WW2 of the Allies losses is sadly lacking. The history I was taught in school is all that the USA had to save the war effort and did all the fighting. Obviously we were essential for the victory over evil, but we did for sure did not do it all on our own.

They shall not grow old was a fantastic documentary. I need to see if I can purchase it as I want to see it again.

Re: Unobtainium spirits: I had the opportunity to buy a sample pack of Pappy's IIRC I had a shot of 3 vintages of Pappy's as well as their famous 23 y/o family reserve, 4 shots in all.

I was only impressed with the 23 y/o when I tasted the younger vintages, I felt I was not missing anything that fantastic. Then I tasted the 23 y/o and was impressed, it is the only one I would bother to get.

[svandamme]

to bad , only reading it now, It's my home town, could have showed you around a thing or two

[Otter74]

I shared a bottle of Westvleteren 12 some years ago and found it just lovely. I have heard that a St. Bernardus 12 is the same beer (recipe), but I don't know whether or not that's true. It's also lovely. and at the least very similar and also easy to find. Some years ago a certain amount of Westvleteren 12 was sold in the US, I heard because the brothers needed to pay for a new roof for the abbey, and it was snapped up very quickly. I'm sure they could sell a lot more but I think they only make what they think they need.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Otter74

I shared a bottle of Westvleteren 12 some years ago and found it just lovely. I have heard that a St. Bernardus 12 is the same beer (recipe), but I don't know whether or not that's true. It's also lovely. and at the least very similar and also easy to find. Some years ago a certain amount of Westvleteren 12 was sold in the US, I heard because the brothers needed to pay for a new roof for the abbey, and it was snapped up very quickly. I'm sure they could sell a lot more but I think they only make what they think they need.

st bernardus is brewn in Watou. they used to brew for the monks till the trappist name became protected and required brewing inside the abbey walls.

so yes same recipe
same yeast

but brewing is an art involving many variables and especually temp control is a difining factor for tasted.

so no its not the same beer at all

[Won]

Thanks guys, I knew some of you would appreciate it.

It's a bit awkward to switch between memorials and beer, but I guess I started it. St Bernardus was mentioned - it wasn't immediately clear to me that Westy 12 is indeed the greatest, so I got a selection of quads to do a tasting with. Sadly the Chimay Bleue is missing. I'm planning to do it together with a couple friends, as it's a big deal to open another bottle of Westy, and also 4x 10% beer should easily feed us Happy to report back.

Stijn, I knew you were somewhere in Flanders, but didn't think to contact you as we were in a rush the whole trip. It's only a short detour from Calais so next time we cross, I might drop you a line! Maybe we meet at In de Vrede so I can taste the other beers from the abbey.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by svandamme

st bernardus is brewn in Watou. they used to brew for the monks till the trappist name became protected and required brewing inside the abbey walls.

so yes same recipe
same yeast

but brewing is an art involving many variables and especually temp control is a difining factor for tasted.

so no its not the same beer at all

+1

I remember when they changed from Sixtus to Bernardus. The label was identical except the figure on the new label was missing the Monk's skull cap and tunic.
I've had both the Westy and St. Bernardus, and they are very similar. They Westy seemed to have a bit higher ABV, or was just a bit less smooth than the Bernardus.
It might have been the difference between pasteurized vs. unpasteurized as well.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Won

St Bernardus was mentioned - it wasn't immediately clear to me that Westy 12 is indeed the greatest, so I got a selection of quads to do a tasting with. Sadly the Chimay Bleue is missing.

I actually prefer the St. Bernardus over the Westy, and it is certainly a lot more accessible. For me, St. Bernardus, Rochefort 10, and Chimay (Blue) make up my personal top 3, in that order.

[95avblm3]

Originally Posted by Won

Thanks guys, I knew some of you would appreciate it.

It's a bit awkward to switch between memorials and beer, but I guess I started it. St Bernardus was mentioned - it wasn't immediately clear to me that Westy 12 is indeed the greatest, so I got a selection of quads to do a tasting with. Sadly the Chimay Bleue is missing. I'm planning to do it together with a couple friends, as it's a big deal to open another bottle of Westy, and also 4x 10% beer should easily feed us Happy to report back.

Stijn, I knew you were somewhere in Flanders, but didn't think to contact you as we were in a rush the whole trip. It's only a short detour from Calais so next time we cross, I might drop you a line! Maybe we meet at In de Vrede so I can taste the other beers from the abbey.

This is a great selection of beers! I have had the opportunity to try the Westvleteren 12 on 3 occasions. Once at the Bruges Bier Fest and a couple of other times at a great place in Hasselt, up in the Northeast of Belgium not far from the Dutch border. LaTrappe Quad and Chimay Blue, among some others, are both in my fridge right now. LaTrappe Quad is a favorite of mine and interestingly is actually Dutch, not Belgian. LaTrapped has a seasonal Bockbier which is also very good!