elec car and gov demand, rental related

[look 171]

The squatter thread and rent control bill in CA had me thinking about what the gov and the liberal law makers will do to us owners who rent out our properties when it comes to electric car charging? Will we have to provide elec. charging as elec cars are gaining traction? Will they strong arm us to retrofit charging stations for renters? How about apartments? Oh yeah, I am afraid.

[cairns]

In California I would bet on it.....

[Sooner or later]

Don't remind them...

[Aerkuld]

This is an interesting question and similar to something which my parents encountered recently. They have a vacation rental cottage in the UK which they rent out on a weekly basis. The accepted normal is NOT to bill the holiday makers for the electricity they use, but to roll a typical bill into the weekly rate. Dad asked me the other day what I thought they should do if they have vacationers who want to charge EV's. This could add significantly to a weeks energy consumption. I thought it could be a good idea to add a charging station which is pay-per-use and billed slightly above the going rate for electricity. Set it up so it would pay the property owner the profit. Of course, it wouldn't pay for the cost of the charging station and installation, but in their instance could be an incentive for someone to stay at their place rather than somewhere else if level 2 vehicle charging is a feature they offer. Long term they then have a vacation property with vehicle charging which would be factored in to the price, and the equipment and installation charge would be a business expense at tax time.

Obviously a long-term rental property isn't in the same situation. I wouldn't anticipate anyone making a decision on a rental just because they have vehicle charging capability, but it must depend on the type of rental. A large executive house is very different from a basement studio unit. It does make me wonder how the issue will be addressed for large apartment complexes. Statistically there must be the possibility of a small percentage of tenants to be EV owners. Then again, there's a fairly healthy public charging network available even for apartment dwelling EV owners to use. Realistically I think this SHOULD be market driven and once property owners start seeing decisions being made based on whether a property has EV charging then it should motivate them to add it or not. On the other hand this is California and logic doesn't appear to be a strong suit.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Aerkuld

I thought it could be a good idea to add a charging station which is pay-per-use and billed slightly above the going rate for electricity. Set it up so it would pay the property owner the profit.

New regulatory zoning law banning (or heavily taxing) any private charging-station will be arriving in 5,4,3,2...

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Aerkuld

This is an interesting question and similar to something which my parents encountered recently. They have a vacation rental cottage in the UK which they rent out on a weekly basis. The accepted normal is NOT to bill the holiday makers for the electricity they use, but to roll a typical bill into the weekly rate. Dad asked me the other day what I thought they should do if they have vacationers who want to charge EV's. This could add significantly to a weeks energy consumption. I thought it could be a good idea to add a charging station which is pay-per-use and billed slightly above the going rate for electricity. Set it up so it would pay the property owner the profit. Of course, it wouldn't pay for the cost of the charging station and installation, but in their instance could be an incentive for someone to stay at their place rather than somewhere else if level 2 vehicle charging is a feature they offer. Long term they then have a vacation property with vehicle charging which would be factored in to the price, and the equipment and installation charge would be a business expense at tax time.

Obviously a long-term rental property isn't in the same situation. I wouldn't anticipate anyone making a decision on a rental just because they have vehicle charging capability, but it must depend on the type of rental. A large executive house is very different from a basement studio unit. It does make me wonder how the issue will be addressed for large apartment complexes. Statistically there must be the possibility of a small percentage of tenants to be EV owners. Then again, there's a fairly healthy public charging network available even for apartment dwelling EV owners to use. Realistically I think this SHOULD be market driven and once property owners start seeing decisions being made based on whether a property has EV charging then it should motivate them to add it or not. On the other hand this is California and logic doesn't appear to be a strong suit.

That's interesting.

I like the "SHOULD" but like you said, its CA. Market driven? Just like rent? (in green)

You live in SF. How do you think this will play out in the city if gov mandates owners to install chargers and yet renter's can't get close enough to their home to charger their cars. Yep, its the law, so us owners must comply. Oh, at the same time, you can't raise rent to cover the install.

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by Aerkuld

This is an interesting question and similar to something which my parents encountered recently. They have a vacation rental cottage in the UK which they rent out on a weekly basis. The accepted normal is NOT to bill the holiday makers for the electricity they use, but to roll a typical bill into the weekly rate. Dad asked me the other day what I thought they should do if they have vacationers who want to charge EV's. This could add significantly to a weeks energy consumption. I thought it could be a good idea to add a charging station which is pay-per-use and billed slightly above the going rate for electricity. Set it up so it would pay the property owner the profit. Of course, it wouldn't pay for the cost of the charging station and installation, but in their instance could be an incentive for someone to stay at their place rather than somewhere else if level 2 vehicle charging is a feature they offer. Long term they then have a vacation property with vehicle charging which would be factored in to the price, and the equipment and installation charge would be a business expense at tax time.

Obviously a long-term rental property isn't in the same situation. I wouldn't anticipate anyone making a decision on a rental just because they have vehicle charging capability, but it must depend on the type of rental. A large executive house is very different from a basement studio unit. It does make me wonder how the issue will be addressed for large apartment complexes. Statistically there must be the possibility of a small percentage of tenants to be EV owners. Then again, there's a fairly healthy public charging network available even for apartment dwelling EV owners to use. Realistically I think this SHOULD be market driven and once property owners start seeing decisions being made based on whether a property has EV charging then it should motivate them to add it or not. On the other hand this is California and logic doesn't appear to be a strong suit.

We put 500 Miles a week on our i3. We almost completely charge at home, on random Sundays we may charge downtown at a free charging station.

We went from spending $250-$300 a month in gas to $40-$50 a month in electricity.

I did the math a while back and IIRC it costs us $2-$3 a day to charge the car back up.

So a renter over the course of a week it would add $20 to your bill. A stage 2 charger costs about $500. You can look at this from another perspective, having one in the cottage might draw in more customers.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by look 171

The squatter thread and rent control bill in CA had me thinking about what the gov and the liberal law makers will do to us owners who rent out our properties when it comes to electric car charging? Will we have to provide elec. charging as elec cars are gaining traction? Will they strong arm us to retrofit charging stations for renters? How about apartments? Oh yeah, I am afraid.

For most EVs all you need is a 110 volt outlet that can be reached with a 20 or 25 foot cord. You can even charge a Tesla on 110 volts if you have a few days.
Most users have a Level 2 (220 volt) charger, which requires 220 volt, 30 amp service.
I agree it should be market driven.

[Aerkuld]

Originally Posted by look 171

You live in SF. How do you think this will play out in the city if gov mandates owners to install chargers and yet renter's can't get close enough to their home to charger their cars. Yep, its the law, so us owners must comply. Oh, at the same time, you can't raise rent to cover the install.

I actually live in the East Bay looking across the bay, but the answer is the same.

It's one of the reasons I think it will be very difficult for government to produce legislature forcing rental property owners to install EV charging facilities. Some folks in the cities are lucky if they can park on the same block as their house, so installing charging would be a waste of time. Maybe properties with on-property parking, or an attached garage? Even then, it's not a given that there's going to be an easy way to get power to a vehicle on that property. Particularly when you have older properties with electrical panels which aren't set up for that sort of power (thinking level 2 chargers). It's a minefield if they try to legislate it, so they probably wouldn't bother.
Maybe the answer is just to provide access to a 110V outlet and an extension cord as wdfifteen said.

Come to think of it, one of the guys I work with drives a Chevy Bolt and I believe he lives in an apartment. He just shares the charger with a couple of us here at work or uses public charging.

[john70t]

You all know what the next phase will be:
1). Home charging stations will pop up everywhere along with internet apps to find them.
A good thing for any electric vehicle driver.

2). Neighborhood associations will complain about the extra traffic.
Local grids may not be equipped to handle the extra loads at peak times in urban areas.

3). Government will complain about unregulated businesses and cash trransactions.

4). Gas stations will complain about lost business medallions and amenity profit while drivers wait (food, shelter, entertainment)
Same as taxis AirB&B etc

[Aerkuld]

Originally Posted by Jims5543

We put 500 Miles a week on our i3. We almost completely charge at home, on random Sundays we may charge downtown at a free charging station.

We went from spending $250-$300 a month in gas to $40-$50 a month in electricity.

I did the math a while back and IIRC it costs us $2-$3 a day to charge the car back up.

So a renter over the course of a week it would add $20 to your bill. A stage 2 charger costs about $500. You can look at this from another perspective, having one in the cottage might draw in more customers.

That's basically what I told my Father, it really doesn't cost that much to charge an EV and it's unlikely to add very much to the bill for a week. Also, EV's aren't especially common in the UK just yet. It's probably a rare event for the time being and shouldn't pose too much of a problem. It may be worth thinking about in the future, particularly if it is likely to become a selling point to vacationers.

[Aerkuld]

Originally Posted by john70t

You all know what the next phase will be:
1). Home charging stations will pop up everywhere along with internet apps to find them.
A good thing for any electric vehicle driver.

2). Neighborhood associations will complain about the extra traffic.
Local grids may not be equipped to handle the extra loads at peak times in urban areas.

3). Government will complain about unregulated businesses and cash trransactions.

4). Gas stations will complain about lost business medallions and amenity profit while drivers wait (food, shelter, entertainment)
Same as taxis AirB&B etc

As an engineer I have my team do Failure Mode and Effect Analysis on systems and new designs. I've often thought Government should do the same thing with legislation; "Let's think about all the things that could happen as a result of this and how we can write this in such a way to prevent that from happening".
If Government doesn't do it, they should. If they already do, they're really bad at it.

Incidentally, you probably know there are already some really good apps which map out all the public charging stations. They tell you what they cost, and whether they're currently in use. I know on my in-car map it's memorized my work and home locations to use as in-route chargers if needed. It's only a small step away to have private chargers publicly accessible if the owners choose to do so.

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by john70t

You all know what the next phase will be:
1). Home charging stations will pop up everywhere along with internet apps to find them.
A good thing for any electric vehicle driver.

2). Neighborhood associations will complain about the extra traffic.
Local grids may not be equipped to handle the extra loads at peak times in urban areas.

3). Government will complain about unregulated businesses and cash trransactions.

4). Gas stations will complain about lost business medallions and amenity profit while drivers wait (food, shelter, entertainment)
Same as taxis AirB&B etc

I charge between 1 in the morning and 4 in the morning. When we are not using any electricity in our home anyway.

Again, the draw from charging is akin to my electric oven running.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/first-gas-station-to-ditch-oil-for-electric-vehicle-charging-now-open.html

The first gas station in the U.S. that has been completely transitioned from a petroleum station to exclusively charging EVs opened Thursday in Takoma Park, Maryland.

RS Automotives, the local gas station, has been around since 1958.

Depeswar Doley, owner of the station since 1997, said he was already unhappy with the way oil and gasoline companies structure contracts — such as limiting the use of multiple suppliers, including clauses that extend contracts when a certain volume of sales is not met and limiting maintenance support. These business factors already were pushing him to consider other options.

A nudge from his daughter was the final step in convincing Doley to make the switch to EV charging.

“My daughter, who is 17, she is the one who convinced me after I told her that I was going to talk to the [Electric Vehicle Institute] guys,” Doley said.

A public works manager for the city of Takoma Park, Maryland, first suggested to Doley a conversation with Electric Vehicle Institute.

When he told his daughter about the idea, “she said, ‘Dad, that’s a real good suggestion.’”

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Aerkuld

Maybe the answer is just to provide access to a 110V outlet and an extension cord as wdfifteen said

No need even for an extension cord. The cords on the chargers are are 15 feet long or more, with a 2 foot “pigtail” between the charger and the wall outlet. An EV owner can buy chargers with even longer cords.
The biggest problem I’ve encountered is not having anything to hang the charger on. I hate to let it hang from the plug. So just a heads up - if you are going to provide an outlet, put a nail nearby to hang the charger on.

[john70t]

Amenities while travelers wait hours to charge the car up might be the next big thing for cottage industry along highways.

People taking a long road trip need to crash or rejuvenate in the meantime.
Waiting is such a boring drag.
Even local area tours or whatnot would be an enticing and potential distraction and a chance to explore.

Tokyo already figured out the personal "capsule hotel" for busy businessmen.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Aerkuld

The accepted normal is NOT to bill the holiday makers for the electricity they use, but to roll a typical bill into the weekly rate. Dad asked me the other day what I thought they should do if they have vacationers who want to charge EV's. This could add significantly to a weeks energy consumption. I thought it could be a good idea to add a charging station which is pay-per-use and billed slightly above the going rate for electricity. Set it up so it would pay the property owner the profit.

This would almost certainly be illegal in California. You can charge them what the electricity cost, but if you charge more than it cost, you are effectively a utility company, and that is no bueno. Might fly if you charged a convenience fee or something.

[stealthn]

Good thread!

[reachme]

Originally Posted by Tobra

This would almost certainly be illegal in California. You can charge them what the electricity cost, but if you charge more than it cost, you are effectively a utility company, and that is no bueno. Might fly if you charged a convenience fee or something.

I understand the logic but I'm not so sure about this. Most marinas upcharge for both electricity and water in a boat slip even though both come from utilities. This marina slip rental scenario is essentially the same thing as renting your home so this might be ok

[Porchdog]

Originally Posted by Jims5543

The first gas station in the U.S. that has been completely transitioned from a petroleum station to exclusively charging EVs opened Thursday in Takoma Park, Maryland.

RS Automotives, the local gas station, has been around since 1958.

Depeswar Doley, owner of the station since 1997, said he was already unhappy with the way oil and gasoline companies structure contracts — such as limiting the use of multiple suppliers, including clauses that extend contracts when a certain volume of sales is not met and limiting maintenance support. These business factors already were pushing him to consider other options.
”

I am curious about the business model for this. My understanding is that for most gas stations the gas is a loss leader - it gets customer traffic in the store. With 4 charging stations and 20-30 minutes per charge the electric charging hardly seems like a replacement for 6-8 gas pumps.

One other point of curiosity - Do EV drivers buy as many smokes, snacks and big gulps as drivers of gas guzzlers?

Slightly off topic - the strategic plan for charging stations seems to include significant storage capacity (batteries). That not only permits numerous simultaneous fast (high wattage) chargers, without a huge grid draw, It opens the door for off-peak and wind/solar charging.

[sammyg2]

As soon as I complete my current contract, me (and my money) are out of California.

Good luck ......