Is there such thing as a (reasonably) attainable Ferraris?
 

Like most grown up teenage boys, it's always been a fantasy of mine to own a Ferrari. Shaun's thread about "cheap" Ferraris on BAT reminded me of my unrequited love and how little I really know about the marque. If I were to buy one it would be a several year process of research and looking and would result in a car that I would pass down to my sons.

So, partly to fuel my Walter Mitty daydreams, and partly as a way to educate myself on what could be the start of a serious search, I was wondering if anyone can give advice on which Ferraris would make a good once-in-a-lifetime purchase. Is there any consensus on used models that can be had for a price that competes with newer 911s and doesn't cost so much to operate that it would be hard to justify driving? Indulge my inner 16 year old and guide my dream of driving into retirement on an Italian steed.

F355 and 360 Modena both seem 'attainable' but then anytime I have considered them, I start factoring in the service costs and its starts sounding less attainable.

Attaining is relatively easy. Maintaining is another story. Some time back, a Ferrari chat post was posted here. A guy saying the cost averaged $1,100. Per month.

So, a Ferrari or a vacation home?

430s seem to be the sweet spot. I half-heartedly follow the market. With the chain driven cams (not belts) you’re not pulling the engine every 3-5years to replace them. The cats don’t seem to fail nor the valve guides fail at anywhere near the rate of the earlier ones. You can get into one for $125k if you look around. Not a number most people can hide from the wife, but they have bottomed out in terms of depreciation and are slowly climbing, so you could get out of it when you wanted (minus your maintenance $$).
If you buy an earlier model, the purchase price is just the ante at the big boy table.

360 or 430 seem to be the easiest to live with from my limited knowledge.

I am not die hard ferrari guy, but I thought Id like to drive one at least once. I paid my 600$ to rent a 360 for a few hot laps around a local small track I am mostly familiar with. The sound was amazing but I felt the car and driving experience were a bit of a let down overall. I know its an old car and not at the top of the desirability level, but my $40k usd exige feels faster, more exciting, and definitely better handling.

A recent thread had a video from Heidi & Franny's Garage chronicling their purchase of an '84 308QV. They paid something like $34K for the car and wound up having to put another $26K into it right off the bat to make it right. The purchase price of older Ferraris just gets you in the door...it's the maintenance and upkeep costs that put a real drain on your wallet. That's unless you've got all the right tools, a well-equipped work area and can handle most of that stuff yourself.

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Even if you are DYI skilled - the consumable parts are the problem, rather it's where you have to go purchase them. Other than spark plugs - not much aftermarket parts support.

I think Ferrari ownership is akin to owning an airplane. The acquisition cost pales compared to the “real” cost of ownership. Ask me how I know. I probably have “more” in some of my P-cars than the cost of purchasing a used 430/360/355or Testarossa, but I think the cost per mile on a Ferrari, real or not, would ruin the enjoyment of it altogether. Not so with my P-cars. Just my .02

This, been watching them for a while, and every tech I spoke to said they’re awesome. You can do most of the work yourself. 360’s are not nearly as reliable.

see post #40 on
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1049880-cheap-ferraris-bat-2.html#post10719234


Yes, you can afford it.

You can look at it and work on it during winter, then drive it during pothole season.

I'd love to own a Ferrari but not badly enough for it to be my only luxury, if I did it would have to be a 458

Was in production the whole time I worked for the F1 team, I walked past new cars every working day on my way to lunch, I never got tired of looking at what I think is one of the most beautiful modern Ferrari's built.

You could buy a Maserati Grand Turismo with the Ferrari engine

I can't decide between the 330 GTS and GTC, so I'll probably never get one...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1579137601.jpg

I completely agree. What a stunning car...proportions are near-perfect.

If I won the lottery, one of those would be my choice too. A 275 GTS would do quite nicely as well :cool:

As many of you, I watch the market more as a fantasy than in any real hope of acquiring one. I've also noticed that the 430 seems to be the "sweet spot", and acknowledged as a relatively "reliable" and "affordable" compromise.

I do remember, however, one that caught my eye last summer. The price was very reasonable. Reading through the ad, however, what really struck me was "$40,000 in recent maintenance". I'm sure the seller saw that as a major selling point, indicating it needed nothing. To me, however, the mere thought that one could spend that much on "maintenance" was horribly depressing. Totally out of my league. Not just the cost, but the frequency with which one would be presented with the opportunity to spend that much on "maintenance". By all accounts, from what I gather, 20,000 miles is considered a "very high mileage" Ferrari. Hell, I put that on my 911 almost every year, and have for darn near 20 years at this point.

Would love one too but this is the closest I'll ever come to a 275 GTS

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A guy I work with (a PhD physicist, no less) bought a 308 years ago and promptly missed a shift and bent a bunch of valves, etc. So, what did he do? He dropped the engine and did all the repairs himself.

I'm sure it wasn't cheap, but he said that working on these things isn't nearly as bad as everyone says. This was probably 10 years ago (or more) and he still has the car and it still runs great.

A 328 would be one that I would consider AND I absolutely love these with a third pedal:

https://www.classicdriver.com/sites/...?itok=5OP9SrWU

I had a 5-speed 400I, bought it for 27K sold it for 25K and put over 25K into it over 7 years to drive it for about 22,000 miles.
I did all the work myself, as mentioned earlier parts and frequency of maintence are the issue. The engine on the 400 uses one long chain to drive all 4 cams, has really short valve guides. The water pump/oil pump unit is chain driving off the crank, so to remove it the engine comes out, the oil pan comes off and the front main bearing needs to be removed to reseal the water pump.
Ferrari recommends removing the engine and "servicing" ( which includes a valve job) it every 40,000 miles. I went 52K and when I did remove and disassemble the engine, I found the valve guides so bad I could drop a valve, the timing chain was wearing a grove in the housing, engine was beyond safe. Ferrari was right every 40,000 miles!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1579180988.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1579181063.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1579181098.jpg

well
SADLY THE OLD ONES ARE ART NOW

back in the 50 early 60's it was common for the blown motor RED cars
to get a chevy swap and keep racing rather then a very costly 12 replace/rebuild

Three things you have to worry about:

Maintenance
Spares availability
The Achilles heel

Maintenance isn't that big a deal, really. In the older cars, there's more of it compared to something like a Porsche. The big ticket items are valve adjustments and cam belt changes, for those engines that require them. If you do it at a dealer, it will be expensive. Independents can sometimes do it cheaper, a there are less time-intensive ways to do some things. It can be done by an experienced individual but you won't enjoy it. Cam belts can go longer than the 3-5 years people suggest. 7-9 is doable, or inspect them periodically and replace them when they show signs of age. Older chassis needed more suspension maintenance than a Porsche. Bushings and whatnot. Ferraris will do high mileage but you'll replace things that were thought of as "lifetime" in a Porsche. No idea about the newest stuff, maybe it's better in this respect.

Some spare parts are now just wishful thinking for some models. That would keep me out of anything older than the 1990's. Haven't been a Ferrari owner for a few years now, it could now be worse. Prices for some things are stupid. Not necessarily routine consumables, but things you might break once in a while. If you can even find them...

The Achilles's heel... Many of these had issues that were stupid expensive to fix (if you could even fix them and keep them fixed.) Take the 355. Depending on which one you bought, you might have bad valve guides (40, count 'em) or bad exhaust manifolds, or an irritating problem with a "sticky" throttle. If you bought a 412, you get to experience their window lifter issue. Many models had the soft tough interior trim paint that went to **** after a decade. Etc.

I'm no longer part of the Ferrari world for a bunch of different reasons and have sold off my cars and all my other Ferrari crap. So, I also don't follow the current market or pay attention to what's been rolling out of Maranello for the last 10 years. Might be a good one out there, might not. Don't know, don't care. Just do your homework and never by one that needs anything. You want one that needs nothing, because it will have been cared for by someone properly. The ones I've seen here recently from bring-a-trailer... you couldn't give them to me for free.

It is nice the 430 is the sweet spot, but it also isn't a classic Ferrari. Anything from the 80s or earlier looks like it is just a big PITA. Cost is one thing, but having to wrench on it that much isn't fun to me, even though I like to do projects.

I always liked the Testarossa. Until I watched Doug Demuro's video on it. A few too many "quirks and features" for a 70k car ... :eek:

Another down side is that the performance is pretty lame on these old cars. If I drop 100k for a car, it really should go around the track at the same speed as my 993 ...

G

The biggest quirk in a Doug De Muro video is Doug De Muro. Living with a TR is no big deal, certainly nothing like as confusing as he suggests. You'd have to be a literal idiot to be confused by some of the crap he brings up.

A TR is every bit as fast as a 993, in some cases faster.

DeMuro is a clown, but there is a LOT wrong in that interior. Point taken on performance. Maybe I'll revisit. :)

G

I’ve had a 308QV and a Mondial 3.2.
I did all the work on both of them, myself. Including cam belt changes, which is very, very easy on those particular models.
Mechanically they are very similar to a 911SC. Exact same Bosch CIS injection, basic brakes, suspension, non power steering, etc. If you can work on one you can work on the other.
There are certain parts that can be very expensive, and you wouldn’t want the engine or trans to blow up, but basic maintenance and replacement parts are generally not too expensive.
A lot of the parts are “off the shelf” stuff used on other cars like Volvos etc. Exact same part, without the Ferrari box, and 1/2 price or less. There’s parts interchange lists on the Internet.
Prices for 308 and Mondial are pretty low right now. I wouldn’t want another Mondial at any cost, and probably not a 308 either. Although on a day of weakness I could possibly see buying a 308 again, if the right deal came around.
They are attainable and maintainable by any reasonably experienced DIYer. The question is do you really *want* one of those models? They are nothing like a 360 or later Ferrari. They are covered wagons in comparison.

OK, I’ll bite. What can’t you stand about the interior?

Great post! So is the 328 a sweet spot?

If this isn't it, then we should have an "everything ferrari" thread by you guys that have been owners and DIYers. I'd be hugely interested in pics and anecdotes. (but not interested enough to go hang out on the ferrari board.

No. You would be disappointed by the driving experience, compared to the modern cars. And spare parts availability isn’t that great. Ferrari isn’t interested in keeping parts available for cars that old.

I think it can be. I’ve never had a 328, but it has the same engine as the 3.2 Mondial, which I found cheap and easy to maintain.

You need a little luck. Really all general maintenance parts, like spark plugs, cam belts, filters, brake pads, cap and rotor, plug wires, shocks, gaskets, etc. are all available and pretty much as low cost as an air cooled 911 or most modern cars.

But some things can be very expensive. For example from what I recall the fog lights are something like $1500 each. Because of that, even used will be expensive (if you could find a used one). I’d guess a lot of trim pieces, interior pieces and things like that are NLA or very expensive.

Relatively speaking, these were high production Ferrari’s, so you can find pretty much whatever you need, might need to be used and it might cost a bit.

So in sum, IMO if you buy a solid one and have a bit of luck, and you are a reasonably competent DIYer and are interested in working on the car, a 328 has a good chance of being reasonably inexpensive to operate, esp. as a limited use car like most people do these days.

The worst part of any Ferrari, esp. 80s V8s, is when you go to sell it.
They tend to be first time buyers, and they tend to be overly Internet-influenced and unreasonable and unrealistic.
So things like if they find out that you haven’t been filling the tires with genuine imported Italian air installed by a factory trained technician named Luigi, they aren’t interested. Because they read on the internet that it will cause the transmission to blow up.
Demand is, and for the most part always has been, soft for 308/328/Mondial, so it’s a lot easier being a buyer than a seller.

But is it "disappointing" in the same way that, say, a 911SC is different from a 991?

Well, one of the cars I owned for a long time was a 1986 328GTB. It was a very nice example, some very rare options, low miles and platinum level condition. Last major service I did, I also replaced all the suspension bushings, shocks, rotors and pads, hoses, etc. The thinking was, that supplies of spare parts were drying up and I wanted to freshen it up for the long haul, as I didn't think at the time that I'd ever sell it. I only used genuine spare parts and I had to scour the globe to find four original shocks, four original brake rotors, etc. Some came through the US dealer network, some came from the UK, etc. You couldn't just order everything from a dealer in the US, Ferrari didn't have all of the pieces needed. Around that time, Ferrari essentially offloaded all of the remaining spares for the older models to an outfit in the UK.
'
What you can get now, I have no idea. I'm not a fan of many aftermarket parts, as the quality can be hit or miss.

Your level of pain acceptance may be higher than mine.

A 308 or 328 drives worse than a 911SC or Carrera 3.2.

Most of the 308/328 cars are the targa-topped abominations. I wouldn't drive one if you gave it to me. Brand new, they flexed. Drive one over a set of railroad tracks and you'd think you were in a massage chair.

The seats suck. No support, will kill your back on long drives.

The driving position sucks. You adjust to fit the car, not to suit you.

They have insufficient ground clearance, so you bottom over dips in the road when traveling at highway speeds.

They are noisy in a bad way and woefully short geared. You'll be doing 4,000 rpm down the highway at the normal speeds you can get away with.

The steering sucks. There are two universal joints in the column and they are set at different angles. This means that the force required to turn the wheel varies as you turn it, which does nothing for the feel. It's hard to explain the engineering reasons behind it in just a few sentences, just take my word for it. Get a little too excited with a steering input and you can break the front tire adhesion completely. You want to load the front tires progressively. There's a lot of mass in the engine, so you want to be careful going through fast chicanes on a track (although, that's not really an issue on the road, unless you're an idiot.)

They didn't put any filters in the cockpit air intakes so you get to do that for them, unless you want all of the crap on the road sent into the cockpit. Ventilation isn't great, so hope the A/C works well. There's enough airflow to keep cool until the temps get into the 80's, then you start to sweat. Cloudy days in winter are much better.

You can't see much from the gauges, unless you wear a black shirt. Anything else, you'll see reflections of whatever you're wearing. Gauges are small and blocked by the ridiculously small Momo wheel, worse than a 911.

If you like the solid feel of an 80's 911, a 308/328 will feet somewhat like a kit car.

etc.

FWIW, the testarossa was the first Ferrari that felt somewhat "modern." A 355 feels light years better than the 308/328.

The 360 ushered in the era of Ferrari that was sized for the rich sports stars that tended to buy them. Totally different feel from the small two-seaters of my era. Much like the latest 911 dwarfs an air-cooled car. Yeah, a 991 can blast down the road in relative comfort at insane speeds but it's not much of a sports car anymore. It just beats the road into submission.

Buy a modern Ferrari and you get to look like the other jackasses that buy them. One or two of them are good guys, the rest are rich douchebags. Same with the Corvettes. Don't know if I could ever own another one, as I don't want to be a "Corvette owner."

I don't especially want a trophy wife, either.

I have always wanted an older Ferrari as well, as I grew up admiring them as a kid as many of us did...but every time I read a thread like this, I immediately lose any interest. Java, good insight...I have heard from many that the 328 era cars are very disappointing to drive versus similar era 911's.

Did you watch the video? It is a random selection from the spare parts bin. Specifically switches and their locations. Hand brake? And do the windows really wind that slow?

G

Or better? 350 GTR...

I didn't need to watch the video, I owned a testarossa for a long time. I'm quite familiar with it...

Here's the thing... the various buttons are all within easy reach. You never use half of them. You use the ventilation controls and the window switches. That's about it. I bet I didn't even spend an average of three seconds per drive pushing buttons. Fog lights? Used them once, figured out they were as worthless as every other factory fog lights, never pushed that button again. Parking lights? That's for leaving your parking lights on if you park by the side of the road. Never needed that, either. Never needed to open the glovebox. Nothing in it I wanted. If the wife wanted in there, she got to push the button. See where I'm going with this? It's just Doug De Muro being an idiot. A TR is an ergonomic work of art, compared to, say, an '80's 911.

How about those lid release levers. You think you could remember that the front lever released the front lid and the rear lever released the rear lid? Need a diagram for that? Jeesus....

The handbrake lever was of a fly-off design on Ferraris of that era, so it wouldn't snag your pants leg when you got out. It had nothing to do with how high the lever was in relation to the seat when you pulled it, as that was a function of how tight the cable was adjusted, like every other mechanical cable-operated handbrake lever out there. Doug, being not so mechanically inclined, probably doesn't get that. Another non-issue.

The windows do operate somewhat slowly, just like a comparable 911. They shouldn't be that slow, so someone has neglected the lubrication needs of the window regulators in the 30+ YEARS SINCE THE CAR WAS BUILT. Seems that there was a succession of cheapskates in that car's owner history. The regulators are a concoction of wires and pulleys and were replaceable, if need be. If Ferrari (or someone else) still has the parts.

It's really not as bad as De Muro makes it out to be. He's a nerd. He could talk for half an hour about the real things a prospective owner might want to know, but instead he wastes time with useless bull****, because he's a bit of an idiot. I could give you a much more useful look at a TR.

None of the cars I like will ever be attainable by mere plebes. F40, 288, 365GTS, 1958 250 Testarossa.

Honestly I would rather have a Dino powered Stratos over all but the 288. Probably.

If you are buying a car based on what you may or may not look like driving it, or what other people will think of you (good or bad) then you are doing life wrong!