Drove a Taycan Turbo S today, and I am a little bit stunned

[RWebb]

ok, you are "a little bit stunned" but are you "a bit sad"??

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

Tax credit

A reduction in the amount of tax an individual owes that causes the govt to need more money from others to cover the lost revenue. Then there is govt subsidies

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Man, I hate government subsidies for cars.

Factbox: U.S. states woo automakers with $17 billion in subsidies since 1976

Business News
August 4, 2017

(Reuters) - Over the past 40 years U.S. states have been vying for new auto plants, with 17 states granting $17 billion in tax breaks, job training funds, infrastructure development and other incentives to woo investment from domestic and foreign automakers.

Here is a list of the subsidies, provided by Good Jobs First, a Washington-based research group.

Pennsylvania gave German automaker Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) $100 million in incentives in 1976 to locate its first U.S. factory in Westmoreland County.

Michigan, home to General Motors Co (GM.N), Ford Motor Co (F.N) and the U.S. unit of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCHA.MI), has granted $7.8 billion since 1984 to the so-called Detroit Three, as well as to Mazda Motor Corp (7261.T), when it was still allied with Ford.

Far and away the largest subsidy was the $2.3 billion in state and local incentives given to GM in 2009 for its Orion Township plant north of Detroit, which builds the Chevrolet Bolt EV and the Sonic.

Nevada has provided $1.6 billion in incentives since 2014 to two relatively young automakers: $1.3 billion to Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) for its battery factory outside Reno and $335 million to would-be manufacturer Faraday Future for a since-canceled plant north of Las Vegas.

Mississippi and Tennessee have provided $1.6 billion and $1.3 billion, respectively, in subsidies to Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T), Nissan Motor Co (7201.T) and VW.

Nissan has solicited $1.8 billion in subsidies from both Mississippi and Tennessee. Toyota has pulled $836 million from Mississippi, Texas and Kentucky, while Honda Motor Co (7267.T) won $389 million from Alabama and Indiana.

Korean automaker Hyundai Motor Co (005380.KS), which controls Kia Motors Corp (000270.KS), has received $645 million in total from Alabama and Georgia.

German automaker Mercedes-Benz, a unit of Daimler AG (000270.KS), received $457 million from Alabama and BMW (BMWG.DE) $254 million from South Carolina.

[RWebb]

who hates government subsidies for oil?

who hates government subsidies for ethanol?

who hates government subsidies for soybeans?

who hates government subsidies for cow corn?

[Sooner or later]

You have to see if the numbers work. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

We have a Goodyear plant that has received about 100 million over 40 years. Initial construction and many expansions to get to 60,000+ tires per day from about 2,500 employees. To recieve the money they had meet certain employment targets. Without the subsidies the plant would never have built here.

So about 2.5 million a year for 2,500 fine paying jobs that avg over 60k a year in pay (hourly and salary) not counting benefits.

That amounts to 150 million a year in payroll that get taxed and that tax far exceeds the 2.5 million in subsidies. Not counting the support businesses that grew because of the plant.

Best money ever spent by Oklahoma based on ROI.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Subsidies are nothing more than Corporate America gaming it's wholly owned subsidiary, Government.

Hey, give us subsidies or we'll go to another state. or country. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

Ever wonder where those subsidies net out to? i think C-level exec pay has risen 1000% since the mid 70s.

Net-net. The Average Joe is making $25/hour, should be making $35/hour. The delta lands in the C-suite laps. Or 3rd home. Either one.

BUT, THANK YOU FOR CREATING JOBS!

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Subsidies are nothing more than Corporate America gaming it's wholly owned subsidiary, Government.

Hey, give us subsidies or we'll go to another state. or country. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

The states pur together packages fo draw in those businesses. Giving 2 million a year and getting 5 or 10 million in revenue is better than no subsidy and no new job and no new tax revenue.

They can be good for both the state and the company. No one forces any state or city to be involved in trying to draw in new jobs.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

lol!

[Sooner or later]

Small business also gets help in an attempt to grow a tax base. Cambridge, Mass has a small business grant plan as do many cities.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Man, I hate government subsidies for cars.

Factbox: U.S. states woo automakers with $17 billion in subsidies since 1976

Business News
August 4, 2017

(Reuters) - Over the past 40 years U.S. states have been vying for new auto plants, with 17 states granting $17 billion in tax breaks, job training funds, infrastructure development and other incentives to woo investment from domestic and foreign automakers.

Correction, subsidies for jobs i.e. your neighbors putting food on the table if you live there.

The EV credits are something different.

[tdw28210]

Originally Posted by RWebb

ok, you are "a little bit stunned" but are you "a bit sad"??

Not really. I've never been anti-electric car, just anti-electric car hype (and the virtue-signaling that often comes with it). I care about the environment and I also care about my pocketbook and my tax dollars too. I just won't run to the latest supposed environmental panacea in an effort to "out virtue" my neighbor. That said, I have a 10.4 Kwp solar panel array on the roof of my home. But 95% of my neighbors have no idea because it is on the back, installed in under a day and is very low profile and invisible from the street.

Electric cars represent an evolution to me. I doubt I will ever NOT own an ICE vehicle, but I can also see myself owning an electric one too. The Taycan just makes that evolution easier to digest because it is so damn fast and a true driver's car. The Tesla never appeared or felt that way to me.

[rusnak]

Tax credits are a far better incentive than subsidies. Requires businesses to actually invest in activity that will generate additional tax revenue and economic growth. But no one listens to economists who don't advocate government hubris.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by pmax

Correction, subsidies for jobs i.e. your neighbors putting food on the table if you live there.

The EV credits are something different.

Why did you bring up credits? We are talking subsidies.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by tdw28210

Not really. I've never been anti-electric car, just anti-electric car hype (and the virtue-signaling that often comes with it). I care about the environment and I also care about my pocketbook and my tax dollars too. I just won't run to the latest supposed environmental panacea in an effort to "out virtue" my neighbor. That said, I have a 10.4 Kwp solar panel array on the roof of my home. But 95% of my neighbors have no idea because it is on the back, installed in under a day and is very low profile and invisible from the street.

Electric cars represent an evolution to me. I doubt I will ever NOT own an ICE vehicle, but I can also see myself owning an electric one too. The Taycan just makes that evolution easier to digest because it is so damn fast and a true driver's car. The Tesla never appeared or felt that way to me.

A Taycan is a great fit for an electric. It is far easier to have the associated costs of the battery/drivetrain/development "hidden" in a 100k+ vehicle vs a 30k vehicle.

You get supercar performance in the Taycan that competes favorably with a new 911 in price and performance. Get the 7500 tax credit and it is a bargain.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Tax credits are a far better incentive than subsidies. Requires businesses to actually invest in activity that will generate additional tax revenue and economic growth. But no one listens to economists who don't advocate government hubris.

They are one in the same. Government gives credits to established business to encourage acting in accordance with governments preferences and it gives startups subsidies to get the same effect.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Why did you bring up credits? We are talking subsidies.

In an EV tax credit discussion ...

Everything else equal, EV prices go down by that much absent the credit.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Why did you bring up credits? We are talking subsidies.

They end up serving the same purpose. They both help grow a company. Tesla was able to charge a little more for each vehicle sold knowing that the customer was going to get the tax credit/subsidy. With a tax credit the customer is just the middle man that passes his credit to the company because of the higher vehicle cost. For every 10 Tesla sold the government "bought" one with the tax credits that were given out. And never took delivery of the one they "bought".

Without the tax credits far fewer Teslas would have been sold and Tesla market cap would be far lower than it is today.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I think we are confusing idealistic theory and philosophy with real world results, at least as it pertains to subsidies.

Which math pencils out better in the end. A C-level exec with an $1,000,000 in his paycheck for creating jobs by playing desperate states off one another (witness the Amazon debacle as a great example) with promises of subsidies or an extra $10K per year in 100 employees accounts? Obviously the employees since much of the C-level extra goes into complex financial instruments.

The fact is Government subsidies use to woo Corporate America to stay in or come to a location with the promise (Carrier) of keeping or creating new jobs has ballooned at the same rate C-suite pay has while worker pay has stagnated over the last 40+ years.

What's sad is people have been conditioned to be thankful for "good" paying jobs with subsidized corporate growth when so much of the profit ends up at the highest level all because C-suite has those workers' jobs as leverage over Government. We all pay taxes so that Corp. America doesn't have to (Amazon paid $0 federal income tax in '18) so Government is effectively taking our tax dollars and paying C-suite bonuses for maintaining a net lower average HHI across the country.

The numbers don't lie. C-suite pay is up 1000% over the last 45 years. What has median HHI done?

[Ronbo]

Yes the Taycan Turbo S is a technical marvel, but Porsche should be absolutely ashamed of its sub-200 mile range. A Tesla Model 3 Performance has similar mind bending acceleration yet is rated at 322 miles of range at less than a third the price. Even the Nissan Leaf has better range. Porsche really should have addressed this before releasing the car.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RWebb]

Tax credits ARE subsidies. Ask an economist.

they can be a better incentive than direct subsidies

----------------------------------------

all subsidies are designed to serve a purpose - just like education

we subsidize that & expect an educated citizenry is a benefit to a democracy

we subsidize scientific research/engineering to make the wagon go faster

we subsidize medical education to make sure the people pulling the wagon are healthy enough to do so

we subsidize national defense to keep the commies off of our wagon

etc.

the problem comes when lobbyists distort* the subsidy system to favor their clients

*(subsidies, of course, are a distortion of pure free-market economics, but no country has ever had a 100% pure free market system - maybe 99 & 44/100ths pure...)