Farmers Fight over Who Gets to Fix an $800,00 Tractor

asphaltgambler · 03-05-2020, 06:33 AM

Somewhat lengthy article but very informative, lot's of meat and potatoes.

Farmers Fight John Deere Over Who Gets to Fix an $800,000 Tractor

id10t · 03-05-2020, 06:42 AM

This has been going on for a while.... and it is coming (and already here) for cars too.

Crowbob · 03-05-2020, 06:47 AM

This was a big issue with Harley-Davidson a couple years back. Don’t know how it all worked out.

Evans, Marv · 03-05-2020, 06:52 AM

I read that article too. Seems to me farmers and Ag companies should be able to work out some arrangement to aid farmers while protecting the patents of the corporations. Otherwise it just seems like the corporations want to eliminate farmers from being able to work on their equipment and make more money off themselves. I agree it's in the pipeline for cars too. The average mechanically inclined guy now doesn't have resources to attempt many repairs. I'm glad my tractors are ancient. However I just bought a new passenger van that has all kinds of electronic doo dads on it.

Sooner or later · 03-05-2020, 06:57 AM

A huge part of their gross profit comes from the repair shop.

Seahawk · 03-05-2020, 06:59 AM

Neat article.

I don't have the type o equipment that is affected by software to the level in the article. There is, however, a real issue with trying to source OEM repair parts from anyone but the dealer....very difficult if not impossible to second source OEM parts for my farm equipment.

The other issue is the large seed and other content providers like Monsanto that can track bags and yields to see if farmers are "holding back" grain from the harvest for next years planting - which is price point driven at the time of harvest.

Monsanto forbids hold back and will get serious about penalties.

stomachmonkey · 03-05-2020, 07:27 AM

I'm on the fence here.

Both sides are valid for me.

What is keeping the 737 MAX grounded?

Software.

Software mods are not the same as physical mods.

The ease and speed at which they could spread is problematic.

unclebilly · unclebilly's Garage

This is a good part of the reason I went with a new Kubota twice in the last 5 years and not green paint for my farm tractors.

bmcuscgr94 · bmcuscgr94's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Neat article.

I don't have the type o equipment that is affected by software to the level in the article. There is, however, a real issue with trying to source OEM repair parts from anyone but the dealer....very difficult if not impossible to second source OEM parts for my farm equipment.

The other issue is the large seed and other content providers like Monsanto that can track bags and yields to see if farmers are "holding back" grain from the harvest for next years planting - which is price point driven at the time of harvest.

Monsanto forbids hold back and will get serious about penalties.

We're running some older Massey Ferguson's. Redid the brakes on one and dealer was the only source we could find. Ordered the part from dealer using number in shop manual we had. Wrong part, turns out there are three different parts with the same part number for our model. Dealer said bring in old part and compare to the three they had in stock. Comment was we should have let them (dealer) do the work.

We had a helluva time getting a water pump for another one. Had to have it rebuilt. Turns out the tractor is not an agricultural model but industrial and they're not making the part anymore.

Scott Douglas · Scott Douglas's Garage

Can you imagine if every time your computer had a problem you had to get it back to the dealer for a restart?

flipper35 · flipper35's Garage

Yeah, but if the dealer can do so much remotely, whey can't they reset the codes remotely after having the correct sensors replaced instead of having the equipment brought to the dealer or a technician dispatched to the equipment?

An independent can reset the iol change code on your BMW, why can't they do it on a tractor?

I understand about not giving out the source code, but a lot of this would only require a simple tool or someone at the dealer sending the correct code out to the tractor when the repair is complete.

asphaltgambler · 03-05-2020, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipper35

Yeah, but if the dealer can do so much remotely, whey can't they reset the codes remotely after having the correct sensors replaced instead of having the equipment brought to the dealer or a technician dispatched to the equipment?

An independent can reset the iol change code on your BMW, why can't they do it on a tractor?

I understand about not giving out the source code, but a lot of this would only require a simple tool or someone at the dealer sending the correct code out to the tractor when the repair is complete.

^^^^^Money sir, money is why^^^^^^^^^

wdfifteen · wdfifteen's Garage

interesting article. Kevin Kenney seems to be his own worst enemy. He complains about not being able to repair the machines, which I think is a valid complaint, then brags that he "retuned" a brand new combine to give it an extra 50 hp. There is a difference between repairing and hot-rodding, and I can see why Deere would not want to give people an easy way to hot-rod new machines. They don't want to being doing a bunch of warranty work on transmissions and clutches.
Deere has been touchy about keeping its tractors stock since the 4 and 6 cylinder tractors came out. In the early 60s they were after M&W for selling turbo kits for 4010s and 3010s, They sued a guy (may have been Kenney) who was re-powering 70s era tractors.
There is a big industry now in people buying and refurbishing pre-electronic tractors and selling them to farmers who want nothing to do with the electronics. These guys are small enough to be OK. Big corporate farms seem to want and can handle the electronic tractors. It's the farmers in between who may have only one big tractor and can lose critical planting or harvest time if it goes down and they can't get it fixed fast.

asphaltgambler · 03-05-2020, 08:56 AM

It reminds me in the auto service world in the late 70's and early 80's prior to OBD 1. Some manufacturers already has basic electronically controlled fuel and ignition systems. There was no standard and to get to diagnosing you had to have a OEM equipment or just guess. Which of course was gambling with other peoples money.

This was the whole reason for the Feds stepping in to standardize that, hence OBD 1. This is one area that I agree with where the Feds really accomplished something positive on an everyman level. Then came OBD II and in 2012 enhanced version where there was substantially more information provided to aid in diagnostics.

I see the AG machinery industry just like those early 80's vehicles but with a whole lot more at stake than just transportation.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 03-05-2020, 08:58 AM

Mass passed a Right to Repair law years ago and it apparently needs to be revised for some reason, I don't know. I'm definitely for it and will be voting for RtoR this fall.

I fear this is one of the results of a fully mature capitalist system which begins to border on corporatism. Another example is patent rights and there are many others. The biggest fish can easily keep small fish from competing.

unclebilly · unclebilly's Garage

Remember the thread a few years ago on Glider Kits? If we farmers could buy glider tractors, and power with non ecu engines, we would.

asphaltgambler · 03-05-2020, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

interesting article. Kevin Kenney seems to be his own worst enemy. He complains about not being able to repair the machines, which I think is a valid complaint, then brags that he "retuned" a brand new combine to give it an extra 50 hp. There is a difference between repairing and hot-rodding, and I can see why Deere would not want to give people an easy way to hot-rod new machines. They don't want to being doing a bunch of warranty work on transmissions and clutches.
Deere has been touchy about keeping its tractors stock since the 4 and 6 cylinder tractors came out. In the early 60s they were after M&W for selling turbo kits for 4010s and 3010s, They sued a guy (may have been Kenney) who was re-powering 70s era tractors.
There is a big industry now in people buying and refurbishing pre-electronic tractors and selling them to farmers who want nothing to do with the electronics. These guys are small enough to be OK. Big corporate farms seem to want and can handle the electronic tractors. It's the farmers in between who may have only one big tractor and can lose critical planting or harvest time if it goes down and they can't get it fixed fast.

If you read the whole article JD sells different HP / TQ levels of the same engine in the same tractor series. As in: the customer pays more $$ for the same combo tuned to higher level of output.

Really this^^^^^ is nothing new as heavy truck engines are configured the same way. multiple power levels available for same combination with the difference being how the ECM is programmed. The customer pays more for higher output.

asphaltgambler · 03-05-2020, 09:20 AM

And can we please address that 'software' is not software at all. It's firmware that is the basic programming.

john70t · 03-05-2020, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Douglas

Can you imagine if every time your computer had a problem you had to get it back to the dealer for a restart?

All the OS's do that automatically. The consumer really has no choich in the matter really. Leased software per EULA.

Win10 was basically forced upon the public.
That was poor form on Microsoft's part, considering every other release was a dog (Win98,Vista,Win8).
Win10 now is filled with little ads and prompts to sign in to X-Box and Microsoft Store...Just like Apple has been doing all along.
I believe Win10 is still the only paid OS that allows users to access and modify the registry though.

Thankfully updates are free for now, and are usually beneficial improvements, but some essential programs like Office 365 require the purchaser to "subscribe". Basically it's like forcing the consumer to keep their own proprietary company bookkeeping and personal data open for Microsoft to read at any time, or to modify that software which has already been 'purchased'.

Jeff Higgins · 03-05-2020, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbob

This was a big issue with Harley-Davidson a couple years back. Don’t know how it all worked out.

I would sure like to see some information supporting this. Can you provide some links?

A good friend of mine owns an independent European auto repair shop. I'm not sure what the laws are in Washington regarding all of this, but he has been successful in retaining access to the software utilized on all of the makes he services. To do so, he spends on an average of about $10,000 per year on software updates for his diagnostic equipment. I'm pretty sure he is buying these updates from the manufacturer of his diagnostic equipment, rather than from the OEM's.

Interesting situation with John Deere. I can see both sides of this issue, for sure. Farmers appear to be benefitting a great deal from this technology. It appears, however, that they would like to have their cake and eat it too. I wonder how many would buy new equipment without all of this technology - it appears they are very much dependent upon it to get competitive and, therefor, profitable yields.