Panasonic interview on PV Power & Storage

[RWebb]

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/02/27/panasonic-eventually-solar-plus-storage-will-be-like-air-conditioning-or-hvac-but-for-now-its-an-emotional-sale/

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by RWebb

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/02/27/panasonic-eventually-solar-plus-storage-will-be-like-air-conditioning-or-hvac-but-for-now-its-an-emotional-sale/

Sounds reasonable. In Cali with threats of planned power outages and really high electricity costs I would put in solar with battery back up.

In Oklahoms it is a waste of money.

[RWebb]

we aren't quite there yet either in the foggy sunless PNW*

one neighbor put up PV on his house when he built it, but that makes more sense


* BTW, stay away!!

[biosurfer1]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

Sounds reasonable. In Cali with threats of planned power outages and really high electricity costs I would put in solar with battery back up.

In Oklahoms it is a waste of money.

It's a waste of money in California, and everywhere for that matter.

There are only two value streams for storage. Either rate arbitrage or back up. Rate arbitrage under current TOU rates would take about 100 years to pay back. I have PG&E and had three outages last year. I lost MAYBE $50 in food since I did not have a generator at the time. A $250 generator and that wont happen again. In the 15 years before 2019, my house had 2 outages of more than 4 hours, and neither was more than 8 hours which means back up would take about 1000 years to pay back.

I would focus much more on V2H where you can use your EV battery as a battery backup at home.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

It's a waste of money in California, and everywhere for that matter.

There are only two value streams for storage. Either rate arbitrage or back up. Rate arbitrage under current TOU rates would take about 100 years to pay back. I have PG&E and had three outages last year. I lost MAYBE $50 in food since I did not have a generator at the time. A $250 generator and that wont happen again. In the 15 years before 2019, my house had 2 outages of more than 4 hours, and neither was more than 8 hours which means back up would take about 1000 years to pay back.

I would focus much more on V2H where you can use your EV battery as a battery backup at home.

In a high cost environment I wouldn't do just the battery. I would also add solar. Cost of California electricity isn't going to go down, only up. The overhead costs of the electricity companies is going to stay the same. Facilities and transmission lines are not going to disappear. As more and more folks move to solar the ones left hooked up will pay an even higher rate to support the same infrastructure. California policy makes that clear. They may increase the hook up/minimal charge to solar owners but that will only cause many give up the connection to avoid that fee.

[biosurfer1]

Oh of course, solar is a complete no brainier here. I meant the value add for a battery on top isn't there.

Living in an HOA, I would be curious to see the financials of a community microgrid. O&M would be the question mark but a community where all houses have solar/storage with a community microgrid for balancing could be an intriguing alternative to typical utility grid connection.

[brp914]

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

It's a waste of money in California, and everywhere for that matter.

There are only two value streams for storage. Either rate arbitrage or back up. Rate arbitrage under current TOU rates would take about 100 years to pay back. I have PG&E and had three outages last year. I lost MAYBE $50 in food since I did not have a generator at the time. A $250 generator and that wont happen again. In the 15 years before 2019, my house had 2 outages of more than 4 hours, and neither was more than 8 hours which means back up would take about 1000 years to pay back.

I would focus much more on V2H where you can use your EV battery as a battery backup at home.

Porsches are a waste of money. Anything other than Top Ramen and an a 1 a Day vitamin is a waste of money. Anything other than Salvation Army clothing is a waste of money. EVs are a waste of money. A $250 generator will gum up and not work in 3 years, and if it does work will need multiple trips to the gas station. It's not just the cost of throwing out food, but sitting in the dark...for hours...days, who knows. A few weeks ago I took a random day of vacation. I get up, about to make a pot of coffee, lights go out. 20 sec later LG Chem battery kicks in, lights on, coffee brewing. Nice.

[dan79brooklyn]

I’m looking forward to when an electric vehicle plugged into my house can work as a battery storage system at night. I’ve already got the solar panels on my roof making plenty of excess power.

Hopefully TESLA will offer this setup rather than the powerwall battery.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

Oh of course, solar is a complete no brainier here. I meant the value add for a battery on top isn't there.

Living in an HOA, I would be curious to see the financials of a community microgrid. O&M would be the question mark but a community where all houses have solar/storage with a community microgrid for balancing could be an intriguing alternative to typical utility grid connection.

It is when you consider that Net Metering is/has gone away. This means anything sent to the grid over what is being used, right now, get you nothing. Even in places with partial payments, anything that comes in from the grid is charged at full price. Anything that goes out to the grid is paid at the reduced rate.

SDGE is no longer paying anything for residential solar sent to the grid. If you want to zero out your electric bill, you need energy storage. There is a way to get Net Metering, but you pay through the nose for it for your regular electricty. This is for new installs.

A 10kW system with high cycle lithium batteries (7000-10000 cycles) in Houston will cost about $60K installed, which includes a NG/Propane Generator. I expect this will be $75K in SoCal. If you drop the generator, you could save about $10K.

10kW will produce around 65 kWh per day, or about 24,000 per year.

The first 750 kW on SDGE is $.19 (9000 kWh/yr)
Everything else is $0.39 (15000 kWh/yr)

Value is around $7.5K/yr - So payback for the ENTIRE system is around 10 years without incentives, or 9 without the backup generator.

If you installed this year, the Federal Incentive is 28%, which drops the payback period to about 7 or 6 years. There also might be local incentives.

[biosurfer1]

Originally Posted by red-beard

It is when you consider that Net Metering is/has gone away. This means anything sent to the grid over what is being used, right now, get you nothing. Even in places with partial payments, anything that comes in from the grid is charged at full price. Anything that goes out to the grid is paid at the reduced rate.

SDGE is no longer paying anything for residential solar sent to the grid. If you want to zero out your electric bill, you need energy storage. There is a way to get Net Metering, but you pay through the nose for it for your regular electricty. This is for new installs.

A 10kW system with high cycle lithium batteries (7000-10000 cycles) in Houston will cost about $60K installed, which includes a NG/Propane Generator. I expect this will be $75K in SoCal. If you drop the generator, you could save about $10K.

10kW will produce around 65 kWh per day, or about 24,000 per year.

The first 750 kW on SDGE is $.19 (9000 kWh/yr)
Everything else is $0.39 (15000 kWh/yr)

Value is around $7.5K/yr - So payback for the ENTIRE system is around 10 years without incentives, or 9 without the backup generator.

If you installed this year, the Federal Incentive is 28%, which drops the payback period to about 7 or 6 years. There also might be local incentives.

SDGE still has NEM 2.0 which pays full retail rate for exported energy. Only excess energy at the yearly true up is valued at wholesale rates, which is fine because at that point, you've paid nothing for the year so it shouldn't be a money maker.

I'm not sure what your "first 750" means? If you install solar you are required to be on TOU rates. There is a small reduction for baseline usage but the rates are still based on the time of day.

I'm also not sure how you assign the "value" of $7500/year. The only way that's possible is if someone was already paying $7500 or more a year for electric and I'm sure there might be some mansions averaging $625/month in electric but not anyone I know.

In some areas of the US back up power might be valued, but like I said, 2 outages in 15 years over 4 hours means backup power is worthless, especially calculating payback, around here.

[biosurfer1]

Originally Posted by dan79brooklyn

Hopefully TESLA will offer this setup rather than the powerwall battery.

Unfortunately Tesla isn't looking into V2H right now, as far as I know. EV manufacturers are hesitant since that would take power away from what their product was meant to use it for, powering the car.

They can make sure there is a minimum amount reserved but it's hard to say how much they should reserve. 10 miles? 20?

Your scenario where the excess solar would charge it is an ideal scenario. Unfortunately currently, solar systems are sized for your average yearly use, so at the end of the year you come out to about 0 for the year. The V2H scenario, you'd have to size it for peak summer usage to cover an outage then, and the excess the rest of the year would usually be wasted. However that is where block chain community energy could step in and things get very interesting!

[red-beard]

The first 750 kWh are at a lower rate. Anything beyond is a higher rate.

[RWebb]

the value add for a battery on top (inside of ~~ 7 years) is the ability to have power during and after the next fire (or quake maybe)