Challenge to Pelican Engineering -> Let's design and build an open-source Ventilator!

[Mahler9th]

And some additional perspective:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-17/johnson-s-ventilator-plan-puzzles-u-k-firms-wanting-to-help

As most folks know, manufacturing components for a proven design is different from coming up with a new design and bringing it through to production at scale in a relevant (that is impactful) time frame, regardless of regulatory framework and litigation environment.

BJ does not look to happy in that picture.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

Hippie? Cool!

I am a black man with an Ivy league education (advanced engineering) that has been involved with medical devices and capital equipment for a long time (engineering summer student 1978 - 1984 and on the business side immediately after engineering grad school 1985 to basically present).

Huge companies like GE healthcare, and start-ups. In two of those I worked with two of the three of inventors of pulse OX.

Was a pre-med in engineering grad school (where I focused on biomedical and electrical engineering) so elected to take all the pre-med orgo classes and a medical physiology class.

Most of my friends will find it funny that I have been labled a hippie on social media.

Oh and a pretty unapologetic capitalist.... headed toward venture capital next.

I am not a big believer in ad hominem in general nor do I generally participate in social media.

Big believer in cobbling and disruption in healthcare.

I think your friends would probably nod, knowingly, and ask if you threw the race card.

[Won]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

Big believer in cobbling and disruption in healthcare.

What do you think we are trying to do here??

Anyway. I can think of a few reasons why a vastly experienced Ivy leaguer such as yourself may not engage in a back-of-the-napkin pub discussion, which is all this is. While you try to distract/dissuade us, I'll continue while I wait for a real ventilator blueprint to land on my desk.

Back on topic. It wouldn't be hard to get a sense of my own need for air volume - just breath into a ziplock bag. I'm small, so use a large ziplock bag for normal people.

Collapsible water jugs for camping could be used as an air pump. Plenty of O2 left in the exhaled volume (maybe the pre-med engineer can confirm?). Pump it manually or figure out how to automate it.

[Mahler9th]

Yet more perspective-- perhaps previously posted (P alliteration):

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/2020/03/14/ventilator-maker-we-can-ramp-up-production-five-fold/#11ba378e5e9a

Best perspective I have read thus far. Just a few days old. I wonder if more actual orders have been placed and/or some of these companies are ramping on their own dime and/or on spec.

And by the way, back of the napkin activity is something I highly value. But I try to start with the best specs I can. Like considering a vent as part of a setting with a variety of machines, disposables and professionals.

I always try to work with like minded disrupters whom have, at least some relevant experience.

For those serious about these vent efforts and related efforts to help with equipment and devices, these folks and others like them will perhaps be good contacts and/or pitch in:

https://innovation.sutterhealth.org/

I met the guy that runs the place last October and I know the couple that provided the funds. Michael Gaulke is a Porschephile and I have raced against him.

Remember, we are all in this together.

[Won]

Sadly, we are not equipped nor qualified to design open-source ICU support staff Just doing what we can.

Since we are all in this together, can rich old people with connections in the industry buy their own ventilator and ICU "system" and share it with the rest?

[unclebilly]

So big boy, are you going to answer my questions or not?

What volume per ventilation?
What max pressure is needed?
How many ventilations per minute?

Don’t assume the rest of us here are stupid or incapable. I only have 33 ISSUED patents and am a professional engineer. One of my inventions is used worldwide and has brought in over $700M in revenue.

If you are going to keep posting in this thread, make yourself useful and answer the above questions (that is if you are the expert that you portrayed yourself to be).

[DonDavis]

I think Mike has clearly explained why I never wanted to work on vents.

I'm curious, does everyone realize that to be on a ventilator, the patient must be intubated? Having that tube down the throat is very unpleasant. Most patients are sedated, else they'll be yanking on it.

For long-term use ( meaning more than a week or so ), the patient gets a tracheotomy and the vent attaches there. No more tube, but the patient cannot speak. I won't even get into how they eat.

There's zero chance I'd allow anyone I know be intubated for "homemade" ventilator use.

CPAPs and Nebulizers are completely different.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Won

......Too bad first thing you need to do is worry about getting sued...


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51911070


Edit: looks like Captain and I were typing at the same time!

Update.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-italy-medical-company-threatens-sue-3d-print-valves-treatments?fbclid=IwAR2jwaqav9bYc9gXazBL_wrKeuswMF PAxaOs78VLeru0UkGVbh1BCAAI6ZE

[Rikao4]

the thing about ventilators..
your pretty messed up if you need one..
and the longer your on it..
the less likely you will come of same..

Rika

[Tobra]

unclebilly, you need a valium, is google disabled on your computer?

Maybe start with this.

https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/critical-care-medicine/respiratory-failure-and-mechanical-ventilation/overview-of-mechanical-ventilation

[Won]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Update.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-italy-medical-company-threatens-sue-3d-print-valves-treatments?fbclid=IwAR2jwaqav9bYc9gXazBL_wrKeuswMF PAxaOs78VLeru0UkGVbh1BCAAI6ZE

Interesting development. I guess the medical companies still need to protect their IP and justify the cost of certification and salary for all the highly qualified engineer doctors, even in the time of Covid.

I did mention earlier that the method used to print those valves are by far not safe (we don't use SLS for parts that need to be food-safe, let alone medical grade). If they do get used, assuming it's not just hospitals trying to save $10999 per valve but for real reasons like scarcity, that only highlights how bad things are.

[charlesbahn]

I like to tinker. And I am a physician with a little knowledge of ventilators. If you have "it" and are in dire straights, you will need to be on a ventilator with a knowledgeable respiratory therapist running the machine; that will be in a hospital, and not something that can be cobbled together to work (the respiratory therapist).

On the other hand, just tipping the scale for survivability when a ventilator is not available, a simple "ambu bag," esp one that can have oxygen supplementation might carry the day. These are easily available with masks, hoses, oral airways. So I really like the idea posted above
https://web.mit.edu/2.75/projects/DMD_2010_Al_Husseini.pdf

But we can do it more simply. Use an inexpensive automatic BP cuff to inflate and deflate the ambu bag- wrap the cuff around the bag, you get the idea- get one with wall outlet option- and rewire the start button to a programmable momentary switch to control the start/stop timing.

Good luck to all of you, my friends.

Charles

[Mahler9th]

Related article with perspective from the UK dated March 17:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8121277/Calls-step-production-ventilators-coronavirus-pointless-without-additional-staff.html

[svandamme]

Why cant you just play along with the topic of this thread.
It's just an open minded think about what can be done

It's not about why something can't be done.
Whether or not additional there is enough staff to man the vents is not relevant at this point.

If you don't like it, then go elsewhere to piss and moan

[Won]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

Related article with perspective from the UK dated March 17:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8121277/Calls-step-production-ventilators-coronavirus-pointless-without-additional-staff.html

Kind reminder Mike, that the Daily Mail is THE prototypical tabloid. Nothing on it is worth quoting. For example: according to their "weather" section, the UK will experience any combination of snowmageddon, earthquakes, killer heatwave, flooding and drought in any given week, all year round.

Fair point about looking at the system and the need for people trained to use the machines. But do we have any idea where the shortage is currently? In 2 weeks' time? Next month? Next winter? Is it wrong to assume there is still room for more machines before we saturate the operators?

[Mahler9th]

NOT pissing and moaning, thanks.

And I never said something cannot be done. What I encourage is to consider the bigger picture in one's efforts.

Efforts are one thing-- I interpreted Wayne's original post as related to an effort, not merely musings, or something in between.

Many folks all around the earth are thinking about what can be done with respect to ventilators. Many, many, many. Lots of evidence of that.

And I believe there is a huge potential benefit from that.

I disagree about whether personnel are relevant. If one is setting out on a "new design," it might be a good idea to consider the types of folks that will operate the design. This can be a part of disruptive thinking.

For example, can a new type of machine be created as a stop gap, and designed for a less skilled person that can be quickly trained to do just one thing? I doubt it, but it is likely a question worth asking.

If one is considering spending time and money to design and or manufacture, for example a new type of vent for some type of application beyond one's own "social circle," then it might be even more beneficial to consider the larger framework that may have an impact on the result of the efforts.

Those are some of my views.

Folks are free to express opinions, expert and otherwise.

Yes I know about the Daily Mail. That was not the point. The point is to consider the bigger picture. I encourage that.

I suspect that folks in public health around the globe do have some ideas where the shortages are (for example in Italy) and where they might be in the future.

The models are likely that good, and the folks involved are likely that smart.

I think it does make sense to consider having folks work on ideas for re-purposing old machines, perhaps converting related equipment, work on finding ways to expand manufacturing output of current designs and so on.

To me all of that makes a lot of sense.

I have not had time to look to see if there are estimates of the global manufacturing capacity for vents. I think it is likely folks in public health have done so. Just like they have likely looked at global supply, including emergency and military stockpiles.

I would guess that most companies in the space have execs that are 0.5 - 1.5 degrees removed from my professional network, given my age and business background, and that they and folks in their enterprises have been scrambling to figure out whatever they can do to increase capacity, change over production lines et cetera. Including tracking down necessary components and timelines. Engineers, product planners, manufacturing folks, global sourcing folks... all hands on deck.

I think in Italy it was just announced that med students in year 4 will not graduate but instead immediately be poured into service.

Some is good, more is better.

But in my opinion, it can often be helpful to consider the bigger picture.

I saw an HC administrative professional from Georgia interviewed on TV today. They have folks in conference rooms sewing gown cloth to create "overmasks" to try to make their short supply of N95 masks last longer.

He stated that they normally spend $0.58 per mask, and have a line on some in Mexico for $7 each and are likely to buy them.

see, e.g., https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/03/18/georgia-hospital-sewing-masks-together-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/

Clinical and economic impact.

[Tobra]

Ivy League Mike, you are not the one pissing and moaning.

[93nav]

This story is evolving. When I read the article yesterday, it said the volunteers who ended up recreating the valves were threatened to be sued when they asked for the blueprints so they could 3D print the valve. Not after they had done it. Now if you read the article, even that is being backtracked. They were denied the blueprints and told it would be illegal to reproduce the valve, but were NOT threatened.

YMMV

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Update.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-italy-medical-company-threatens-sue-3d-print-valves-treatments?fbclid=IwAR2jwaqav9bYc9gXazBL_wrKeuswMF PAxaOs78VLeru0UkGVbh1BCAAI6ZE

[93nav]

Yes it did get that desperate. Have your read any of the stories on what was/is happening in northern Italy? As of a few days ago, 10 had been used. And the OEM cost may not be what was stated.

Originally Posted by Won

Interesting development. I guess the medical companies still need to protect their IP and justify the cost of certification and salary for all the highly qualified engineer doctors, even in the time of Covid.

I did mention earlier that the method used to print those valves are by far not safe (we don't use SLS for parts that need to be food-safe, let alone medical grade). If they do get used, assuming it's not just hospitals trying to save $10999 per valve but for real reasons like scarcity, that only highlights how bad things are.

[DonDavis]

Am I missing something? Who, in their right mind, would...
A- try and put a person on a homemade vent
and
B- allow anyone they know to be put on a homemade vent?

If you are one of the ones who would do this, please state it clearly. Of those, have you been on one, or have you visited patients that have been on one longer than 1 day?