Can we hold China responsible?

[unclebilly]

This is China’s fault.

Almost every business or person in the developed world had been affected.

China knew that this virus was out of control and let it run rampant.

What recourse do we have?

As a start, I feel strongly that all national debts to China should be cancelled.

What are your thoughts?

[Bill Douglas]

I've talked about it for years but people explain to me that the world wouldn't exist as we know it without their (cheap) manufacturing. But what I'd like to see is a social media driven boycott of anything and everything made in China for a year. Starve them into behaving themselves.

[Wayne 962]

I think this will dramatically shift everything away from China on its own. No one will want to be subject to the Chinese mantra and/or supply chain after this. Maybe this is finally Africa's time to shine?

-Wayne

[DanielDudley]

China is like a man who does all the hard and dirty things so his wife can sit at home, file her nails, and let the dishes pile up. She wants to make it his fault that she maxed out the credit card, but the truth is that no other man will have her.

The woman is perfectly capable of taking care of herself, she just lacks the discipline and will. She looks at her children as if they are a burden, but really they are her greatest asset, even as she neglects them and lets them become malnourished and idle.


The only real question here is whether the man will get tired of it or not.

This is really a PARF thread. I can't even remotely think of how to address this directly outside of PARF without triggering people.
No one asked us to borrow money from China, and the only reason we buy things from them is because it is more profitable for businesses than sucking up and manufacturing here in the US. China isn't just an economic powerhouse, it is the powerhouse.

''But, but, you're just a big fat panda.'' ''No, I am THE big fat Panda.''

[ckelly78z]

The supply chain corrections upcoming for American companies (that are currently running out of product) will be enough to punish China into a severe recession for years to come.

[jcommin]

If you talk to the animal lovers and vegans, some will tell you the virus was cause by eating animals. They site the virus started in a "wet market". If we would all eat plant based foods, this would have never happened.

Some industries are going to change and won't recover for a long time - some of the small business owners will go bankrupt. This is mostly in the service sector. The stock market may take 6 months to a year to recover. The recovery time is probably slower - it won't snap back.

[A930Rocket]

I thought China was blaming us for sending the military incognito and releasing the virus...

[Adrian Thompson]

I don't think it will change future sourcing decisions much. China was the starting point so will probably emerge from this first. Then they will ramp production and supply back up. The rest of the world will be so grateful stuff is flowing again that they will forget about the issues and rush back into business as usual.

I'm not saying I want this to happen, or that I'm a support of it, just that I think that's what will happen.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Adrian Thompson

I don't think it will change future sourcing decisions much. China was the starting point so will probably emerge from this first. Then they will ramp production and supply back up. The rest of the world will be so grateful stuff is flowing again that they will forget about the issues and rush back into business as usual.

I'm not saying I want this to happen, or that I'm a support of it, just that I think that's what will happen.

I agree. We have incredibly short memories.

[legion]

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

China knew that this virus was out of control and let it run rampant.

How do you say, "The coronavirus is the common cold, folks," in Chinese?

Originally Posted by unclebilly

What recourse do we have?
As a start, I feel strongly that all national debts to China should be cancelled.
What are your thoughts?

For a nation to make skipping out on its debts legitimate there would need some kind of proof that China intentionally let the virus spread. Without that, the country would just be in default, which would wreck its credit rating. How is anyone going to get that kind of proof out of China?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

China is like a man who does all the hard and dirty things so his wife can sit at home, file her nails, and let the dishes pile up. She wants to make it his fault that she maxed out the credit card, but the truth is that no other man will have her.

The woman is perfectly capable of taking care of herself, she just lacks the discipline and will. She looks at her children as if they are a burden, but really they are her greatest asset, even as she neglects them and lets them become malnourished and idle.


The only real question here is whether the man will get tired of it or not.

This is really a PARF thread. I can't even remotely think of how to address this directly outside of PARF without triggering people.
No one asked us to borrow money from China, and the only reason we buy things from them is because it is more profitable for businesses than sucking up and manufacturing here in the US. China isn't just an economic powerhouse, it is the powerhouse.

''But, but, you're just a big fat panda.'' ''No, I am THE big fat Panda.''

I'm not sure that I completely agree. China is the primary, and I think that's mostly because of the resources and amount of people that are united under one govt.

Using your analogy, what about Mexico? Are they one of those little red pandas? They don't have the people or resources, but we do get some stuff from there.

I suspect South America could be another panda. I suspect they have the resources, but I don't think they are unified enough for it to work. I suspect the same goes for Africa, resources, but no unification which would be required to unite the resources, people and supply chain to get products made and shipped.

Russia could probably be another huge fat panda, but due to the long running cold war and the fact that they are so corrupt makes in unlikely right now. I assume another big part of it is that they don't have the population of China. That would probably make them more of a force.

Even Canada probably has a ton of resources, but between the cold and the lack of manpower...

We probably have enough resources to do a lot of what we need, but there are problems. We've got the EPA and the tree huggers (which is good) which would keep us from creating huge pit mines for stuff and grossly polluting. I suspect due to our standard of living and the fact that we have things like the EPA, if we did try to go top to bottom, everything would be far more expensive.

Yes, I think China is the big fat panda. I also think that they are, unfortunately for the world, uniquely suited to that role. They don't really seem to give a darn about their people's health or well being (they've got more where they came from)so they cut corners on pollution and safety which makes things a lot cheaper. They also have an enormous area full of natural resources united under one govt which means that they can get it all done.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Adrian Thompson

I don't think it will change future sourcing decisions much. China was the starting point so will probably emerge from this first. Then they will ramp production and supply back up. The rest of the world will be so grateful stuff is flowing again that they will forget about the issues and rush back into business as usual.

I'm not saying I want this to happen, or that I'm a support of it, just that I think that's what will happen.

Right, who (what country/region) is prepared with the raw materials, factories, and manpower to pick up at the rate that the world wants/needs? No one other than China.

[BK911]

Originally Posted by A930Rocket

I thought China was blaming us for sending the military incognito and releasing the virus...

I'm not saying I believe this, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by jcommin

If you talk to the animal lovers and vegans, some will tell you the virus was cause by eating animals. They site the virus started in a "wet market". If we would all eat plant based foods, this would have never happened.

There is certainly some truth to this. There are clear health advantages to a plant-based diet, it’s easier to produce more food per acre of land, etc. The thought of killing animals for food is pretty distasteful to me and I find it interesting that we decry primitive behaviors when it comes to most things yet cling to this rather barbaric and unnecessary practice. I wish more people would lose the boorish macho redneck attitude about it and give it a try. We’d be collectively better off and might benefit from showing a little compassion too - I’ll stop there. Disclaimer: I am and have been vegetarian for over 30 years.

Sure there are some plant-borne illnesses but this is clearly the result of a despicable (and very unsanitary) practice in China (whether or not sparked or “helped along” by something coming out of a nearby BSL4 lab is as yet unknown for most).

Originally Posted by jcommin

Some industries are going to change and won't recover for a long time - some of the small business owners will go bankrupt. This is mostly in the service sector. The stock market may take 6 months to a year to recover. The recovery time is probably slower - it won't snap back.

The only constant is change... I like to think of these sorts of events as much like economic natural disasters… They’re destructive and while it’s hard to bear witness to that part, they do (or can, if allowed to) clear things out and set the stage long term for new life and new growth.

I’m really bothered by globalism and in particular our trend towards depending on cheap slave labor for just about everything we enjoy in our day-to-day lives… It has bothered me for a really long time yet the world continually turns a blind eye to it, putting greed, quarterly profits and selfishness above the well-being of others (not to mention our own national best interests) time and time again. That sort of “me first” attitude (not too different from the one that allows them to rationalize killing / eating animals to get back to your earlier point perhaps...) might finally change. Maybe this will be a wake-up call. I sure hope so.

China is NOT our friend and has acted terribly irresponsibly here. Their after-the-fact threats to cut off pharmaceuticals to the USA, even going so far as to accuse us of creating this rather than owning up to it themselves should be a wake-up call. Much like the Middle East with oil, we really should stop handing money, power and influence to people who ultimately want to destroy us - rather turn inward and produce for ourselves.

Sadly I expect most people in the US and west will go right back to their old behaviors once this sorts itself out - the insatiable lust for cheap throwaway junk will probably supplant any long-term common sense and / or desire to do the right thing. I’m hopeful but cynical. If I’ve learned anything on my 50-odd years on this rock it’s, “never, ever underestimate the human capacity to rationalize anything, no matter how abhorrent”.

I hope everyone stays well. If there’s any silver lining here, it’s that the extraordinary measures being put in place to protect our must vulnerable people (sick, elderly) demonstrate that we do actually have some capacity for kindness and compassion. I hope we build on that.

[jcommin]

Nice response P-o-P. I'm not about how it started - it is what we do now going forward and try to do a lessons learned. It is difficult because we do live in a global world that we are dependent on. Things will never be important to you/we/I until it happens to us.

And yes we will go back to our bad habits - IMO, Americans have very short memories.

Ten years ago, I was involved in a Corporate scandal - internal and external auditors, lawyers, depositions and the like. For 6 months I felt like a pariah. Many who were involved with the situation left the company and the ones that remained had forgetful memories. Some always falls on the sword. A new corporate staff took over vowing to get to the bottom and putting safeguards in place so this never, ever happens again. It started out positive but over time, things slowly went backwards. Today, it is the same as it was 10 years ago. We have new players, same playbook. The biggest difference is new people with more pleasant personalities. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[speeder]

Just had a thought; where did flu viruses in the United States come from 50 years ago when China was not a player and everything was made here, there was zero passenger airline traffic between us and them, etc.? People traveling from other parts of Asia?

I've always been under the understanding that influenza viruses originate in Asia every year, maybe I have that wrong? Globalism and prosperity have certainly set us up for the perfect storm wrt spreading a virus around the globe. Think of Wayne's acquaintances who got infected--how many groups of Americans jumped on a plane to go skiing in Italy 50 or 60 years ago? I'd say close to zero. Now, I know plenty of folks who do such things.

We have created so much wealth and travel is so cheap, (historically speaking), we now have jet airliners full of well-traveled people coughing on each other. This virus will spread but I don't think that everyone will get it. Even China seems to have contained it somewhat at this point...think of the overall population of China vs. the number of cases. There is no way it is as contagious as the flu, IMO.

I also think that the U.S. is doing the right thing by shutting everything down now to try to slow it down. People in China will put up w a lot that we will not, (because they have no choice). If we had people dropping dead in public and dying outside ERs here, believe me, everything would be shut down and it would make what we are going through now look like a picnic. And I'm including financial markets. I think some smart disease specialists and economists are huddled in WDC and QBing this.

[Seahawk]

Interesting perspective, one I had not read previously:

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/03/why-italy-and-iran.php

Full article here: https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/17/iran-and-italy-are-paying-a-hefty-price-for-close-ties-with-communist-china/

Italy and Iran have been two of the countries hardest hit by the Wuhan coronavirus, outside of China. Why? Helen Raleigh explains at The Federalist:

The reason these two countries are suffering the most outside China is mainly due to their close ties with Beijing, primarily through the “One Belt and One Road” (OBOR) initiative.

OBOR is Beijing’s foreign policy play disguised as infrastructure investment. Here’s how it works: China and country X agree to do an infrastructure project in country X. Country X has to borrow from a Chinese bank to finance the project. A contract is always awarded to Chinese companies, which then bring supplies and Chinese employees to country X to build the project.

As a result of One Belt and One Road, there are more than 300,000 Chinese living in Italy.

Almost exactly a year ago in March 2019, against warnings from the EU and the United States, Italy became the first and only G7 country to sign onto OBOR. As part of the deal, Italy opened an array of sectors to Chinese investment, from infrastructure to transportation, including letting Chinese state-owned companies hold a stake in four major Italian ports. …

Lombardy and Tuscany are the two regions that saw the most Chinese investment. Nearly a year later, the first Wuhan coronavirus infection case in Italy was reported in the Lombardy region on Feb. 21. Today, Italy is experiencing the worst coronavirus outbreak outside China, and Lombardy is the hardest-hit region in the country.

The Iran case is interesting as well:

2019 was the year Iran officially signed up to OBOR. China sees Iran as a crucial player to this initiative because Iran is not only rich in oil but also lies in a direct path of an ambitious 2,000-mile railroad China wants to build, which will run from western China through Tehran and Turkey into Europe.

Today, Iranian health officials trace the country’s coronavirus outbreak to Qom, a city of a million people. According to the Wall Street Journal, “China Railway Engineering Corp. is building a $2.7 billion high-speed rail line through Qom. Chinese technicians have been helping refurbish a nuclear-power plant nearby.” Iranian medical professionals suspect either Chinese workers in Qom or an Iranian businessman who travelled to China from Qom caused the spread of the coronavirus in Qom.

News reports indicate that a number of high Iranian officials have contracted coronavirus, and I believe at least one or two have died. Raleigh explains:

Although on Feb. 1 the Iranian government banned its airlines from flying to China, it made an exception for Mahan Air, an unofficial airline for the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.

The WSJ reported that Mahan Air “had carried out eight flights between Tehran and China between Feb. 1 and Feb. 9 to transfer Chinese and Iranian passengers to their respective home countries.” This explains why so many high-level Iranian officials are infected by the coronavirus, including First Vice President Eshaq Jahangiri and more than 20 lawmakers.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Interesting perspective, one I had not read previously:

That's because it's a soap episode written to fit a tragedy into an agenda.

China's Belt and Road Initiative has well over 50 countries in its portfolio. What are the infection and mortality rates in those other countries.

Powerline and Federalist are fake news opinion sites that typically jam agenda narrative into real world events.