19th Century Firepower

[Jeff Higgins]

As most of you folks know, I'm fairly enthusiastic about 19th century arms, particularly single shot rifles, single action revolvers, and lever action rifles. These things are all enjoyable and surprisingly effective in their original chamberings, even when restricted to their original performance levels.

One of the somewhat under developed aspects of them, however, is just what they become capable of in modern guise, when reproduced with modern steels. These firearms all attained their (relatively modest) strength through sheer mass, the size of their actions, when produced from then available materials. So, what happens when we take these old designs and reproduce them in modern materials?

Doing so allows us to load ammunition for these old firearms (mainly the rifles) that approaches the working pressures of modern cartridges. Those of us playing this game have, for example, raised the working velocities of the old 400 grain .45-70 load from the black powder propelled original 1,300 fps to over 2,000 fps, a very notable increase.

Well, here is one that brings this whole thing to its logical extreme. The old .50-110 Express was a black powder round of, for the time, significant power. This guy demonstrates what it is capable of today. Granted, kind of an amateurish video, but the modern day performance of this old lever gun / cartridge combination speaks for itself. Over 6,000 foot pounds of muzzle energy. That significantly exceeds the .458 Winchester Magnum. Pretty darn impressive:

[RWebb]

I thought we were going to see pics of mortar emplacements...

[tabs]

A friend who has been to Africa multiple times and has his 4 of the Big Five in the record books..(he is missing the Big Horn Sheep) has had a detached retina from pulling the trigger on a 505 Gibbs once too often. He won't pull the trigger on the Big Boys anymore...

[sc_rufctr]

Impressive but the kick looks brutal in the video.

But I can't imagine a better way to make a hole

[HardDrive]

Higgins, why must you post things like this? It is one of my life goals to get a deer with a .45-70.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by tabs

A friend who has been to Africa multiple times and has his 4 of the Big Five in the record books..(he is missing the Big Horn Sheep) has had a detached retina from pulling the trigger on a 505 Gibbs once too often. He won't pull the trigger on the Big Boys anymore...

The most powerful rifle I have ever hunted with is the ubiquitous .458 Winchester Magnum. Even at that, if you show up with one, you are going to raise the suspicions of the man that is going to be your guide. The vast majority of their clients cannot handle that level of recoil, much less anything bigger. One will be called upon to demonstrate one's ability with such a rifle before the hunting begins. Most prefer that you show up with nothing larger than a .375 H&H, which will kill anything on the continent, with authority.

They draw a distinction between "hunting" and "stopping" rifles. The .458 is the upper end of the former, and the beginning of the latter. The .505 is squarely in the latter. Pretty unnecessary unless it's your job to clean up others' messes. And yes, recoil does get to be a very real problem once it gets to that level. No one shoots this stuff just for fun. Hell, I have .458 loads approaching 20 years old that I loaded for my last hunt with the darn thing that remain unfired today. I keep promising myself "someday", but I'm quite honestly getting too old for such nonsense anymore.

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Higgins, why must you post things like this? It is one of my life goals to get a deer with a .45-70.

They do seem to work quite well. Especially where you live, and hunting in the dense woods of the UP. I cannot think of anything better. Maybe next season...

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The most powerful rifle I have ever hunted with is the ubiquitous .458 Winchester Magnum. Even at that, if you show up with one, you are going to raise the suspicions of the man that is going to be your guide. The vast majority of their clients cannot handle that level of recoil, much less anything bigger. One will be called upon to demonstrate one's ability with such a rifle before the hunting begins. Most prefer that you show up with nothing larger than a .375 H&H, which will kill anything on the continent, with authority.

They draw a distinction between "hunting" and "stopping" rifles. The .458 is the upper end of the former, and the beginning of the latter. The .505 is squarely in the latter. Pretty unnecessary unless it's your job to clean up others' messes. And yes, recoil does get to be a very real problem once it gets to that level. No one shoots this stuff just for fun. Hell, I have .458 loads approaching 20 years old that I loaded for my last hunt with the darn thing that remain unfired today. I keep promising myself "someday", but I'm quite honestly getting too old for such nonsense anymore.



They do seem to work quite well. Especially where you live, and hunting in the dense woods of the UP. I cannot think of anything better. Maybe next season...

Cape Buffalo, Elephant...

Four trips to Tanzania.. the guy ain't no dilettante..

[Jeff Higgins]

None of us could ever afford the damn trophy fee on anything like an elephant, which even way back when was something like $25k in most places. So we settled for the decidedly plebeian ten or fourteen day "plains game" gig, wherein one could shoot a whole bunch of various antelope and gazelle species, with one buff thrown in just to add some "excitement". Which it never did, but that's a whole different story. But, yes, if Jumbo were on the list, a .505 would make an excellent choice.

Kind of back to the topic at hand, just try showing up with a lever gun. I asked and was flatly told "no". Two of my buddies just showed up without asking, on different occasions. I wasn't there either time.

One was rather ungraciously loaned a beat up old 8mm Mauser, the staff wanting nothing to do with his "cowboy" gun nor his "cowboy" fantasies. I guess they were real jerks about it... The other was allowed, with great reservation, to "try it", and they "would see". Both had brought what was pretty much the only game in town at the time, the '95 Marlin with really heavy .45-70 loads.

The guy who was allowed to use his managed to pretty thoroughly impress the staff with its killing power. To the point where the lead PH actually asked if he would consider selling it to him before he went home. Alas, at the time, such performance was strictly a hand loading proposition, one which the guy was in no position to pursue, so the rifle came home.

I wonder if it has changed since, what with the availability of commercially loaded ammo (Buffalo Bore, Garrett, etc.) that mimics our hand loads of the day. I kind of doubt it. Like most hunters, they are all pretty stuck in their ways. I would have to think, though, that the lowly Marlin with those heavy .45-70 loads would have to be about the best damn lion gun ever conceived. But then, well, how is a guy to brag that he spent $50k on his rifle alone? Those are the only guys who are going anymore anyway.

[jyl]

Guns shooting bullets propelled by powder are amazingly developed technology. When I was a kid watching Star Trek, it seemed like some newer weapon (phaser, laser, disruptor, rocket, etc) would come along. But here we are in 2019 and nothing is yet better.

[sc_rufctr]

Wow... Rather lovely for a reproduction. I do love these old guns!

https://www.williamsflintlocks.com

[rusnak]

The guy in the first video went downrange with a hot rifle leaning against a tire. It could have fallen and shot someone, himself included.

[sc_rufctr]

That legit... Lots of stupid on YouTube.

[Geronimo '74]

Originally Posted by rusnak

The guy in the first video went downrange with a hot rifle leaning against a tire. It could have fallen and shot someone, himself included.

That’s what I thought.
Between that, and the mouthbreathing, the cool rifle alone was not enough to keep me watching until the end.
And clean the cobwebs of your gauge, FFS.

Sorry, didn’t get any coffee this morning.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Wow... Rather lovely for a reproduction. I do love these old guns!

https://www.williamsflintlocks.com

Now yer talkin my language..

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by rusnak

The guy in the first video went downrange with a hot rifle leaning against a tire. It could have fallen and shot someone, himself included.

No he didn't. I can see where someone with no experience with these types of firearms would think he did, but he absolutely did no such thing.

Unlike modern semi-autos, these things do not reload themselves. He fired the rifle, and without working the action, he leaned it on the tire. There was a spent cartridge in the chamber, with absolutely no chance a live one had somehow snuck in and replaced it.

Yes, he could have opened the action and removed that spent cartridge, then left the action open. We would demand he do that if he were shooting with others, so everyone else knows the thing is safe. It's more of a courtesy to others, however. He was alone, on his own range - he knew damn good and well the thing had just been fired and was safe.

As a matter of fact, under those conditions, it might even be better to leave the action closed in case it does fall over. Less chance of damaging the lever, or getting dirt in the action.

[fred cook]

The heaviest recoiling rifle I have fired was a Richards 577/450 double rifle. Years ago a good friend was collecting British double rifles and large bore singles. One day he said that he was going to the range to shoot the "new" Richards double and would I like to go? Twist my arm! The thing that impressed me the most was how well the barrels were regulated! Even though the rifle weighed a bit over 10 lbs, recoil was, well, noticible!

[John Rogers]

4 or 5 years ago when I still had my black powder 45-70 Sharps and an original Rolling Block I was at the range and young fellow (AR-15 shooter) showed up at our range with an original Sharps 50-140! He had a dozen cases (huge) and couple dozen cast lead bullets but no primers or black powder and he wanted to shoot his great grandfather's rifle. S000000 I primered up half a dozen cases and went with nearly a full load of Goex FFG black powder. The cases had been expanded some so we could just push the bullet in after a card wad on top of the powder.

The rifle weighed about 16 pounds so we sat it on a couple sandbags and pulled the trigger. I thought the whole 300 yard range moved back about a yard or so and it took 20 seconds for the huge cloud of smoke to clear! Since the guy was 6 foot 2 he decided to shoot it off hand and he was actually able to manage it although muzzle rise was substantial! Not until we were all done did think of shooting a video, but he decided he had enough.

[Jeff Higgins]

I remember when both Shilo and C. Sharps Arms were still chambering the two 3 1/4" cases, the .45-120 and .50-140. Pretty impressive, intimidating rounds. One of the competitors at our local matches made the mistake of ordering one in .45-120. Shooting prone, it would lift both elbows off the ground. Way too punishing for a match rifle, so he had the barrel set back and rechambered to .45-90.

While there are some original Sharps rifles in these calibers, they did not leave the factory that way. Sharps never made a rifle with a 3 1/4" chamber. See Frank Seller's book for the lowdown on this. Many were rechambered to these calibers, however. The real "Big Fifty" was actually the .50-90 or .50-100, with the 2 1/2" case.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by tabs

Now yer talkin my language..

And a fine way to make a living. I envy people who have found that one thing they were put on this Earth to do.

[Jeff Higgins]

Very cool video, Peter. Thanks for sharing.

Everyone who would call himself a "rifleman" should have a flintlock and be adept with it. I built my one and only almost 40 years ago from the Dixie Gun Works kit. Mine is a Southern "Poor Boy" pattern, from way down south in the Appalachians. The stock is cherry wood, and all of the furniture is iron, rather than fancy brass. No fancy patch box, no carving or engraving, no adornments of any kind. Definitely a poor working man's rifle.

I used to hunt our muzzle loading deer seasons with it every year. Pretty challenging sometimes, in our wet Pacific Northwest. It proved every bit as capable of taking deer as it must have been in the 18th century. My load of a .495" diameter round ball in an .015" thick pillow ticking patch, over a stiff load of 110 grains of FFg took several deer over the years. I don't hunt with it anymore, but still get it out for some fun plinking every now and then.