Generator for Power Outages - Sizing - Natural Gas?

[aigel]

All,

I studied a few generator threads and it looks like Honda or Yamaha are recommended. But then people all have different applications in mind and I have specific requirements and hope I can pick you guys' brain.

I have 2 french door type fridges and 2 small chest freezers I would like to run in a power outage. That's about 3kW max? What size generator do I need?

Also, can I run the generator off natural gas and hook it into my house gas line? Is a "dual fuel" generator just going to take NG? Or do I need a conversion kit? And how do I hook it up? I only find scary DIY installs for small generators. All the pro installs are big auto backup machines. Maybe that's why small generators are just fed with gasoline?

For the electrical connections, I am not looking to have a major project that ties into the house electrical panel. Running some power cords would be fine by me.

Input and specific recommendations on a unit?

Thanks!

George

[Crowbob]

The freezers don’t run continuously. For your application (to run only 4 freezers during an outage) what I’d do is go with a small portable gasoline genset (Probably Honda 2200-continuous, 2.5k surge) and run extension cords to each freezer. Every few hours alternate two freezers at a time.

[red-beard]

A few things.

Motors usually need startup current (inrush current, surge current). The rated operation of the refrigerators are usally around 300 Watts each, but need about 1500 Watts to start. 3000 Watts will run those 4 appliances if you plug them in one at a time.

The other big differences between a portable and a fixed install generator are voltage/frequency regulation and noise. Little generators are generally noisy. And ones under 4K are generally 120 VAC single phase only.

If the generator is "dual fuel" with NG, then it has the equipment built in to run.

Finally, most of the small generators are only rated for 50 hours operation. After 50 hours you need to shut them down and change the oil and sparkplug. They don't have oil filters. Even an 8 kW backup home generator has an oil filter. They typically are expected to run no moe than 4 days to a week, before maintenance.

And then there are transfer switch discussions and installation costs. And fuel. If you have a gasoline only machine, you need a steady source of fuel.

If you expect to be out of power for 24 or less, and ae will to only run the essentials, a portable will work. If it is more than 24 hours, and you have the money, install a whole house generator with a good fuel supply (NG or Propane).

Under 12kW, I think Champion has the most cost effective solutions. Briggs has some neat new things, like a transfer switch that plugs into the meter stabs. Electric company pulls the meter. Electrician installs the TS in 15 minutes and the power company installs the meter back in immedialy.

[vash]

I ran a side by side fridge and my neighbors freezer plus some lights, and my tankless water heater with a Honda 2000.

I bought my own Honda 2200, since I borrowed the 2000 from a pelican. My neighbor bought one as well. The best part? One day they ran 9 hours and 20 minutes before running out of fuel. If there is more demand, 8 hours easy.

To tell the truth, the Yamaha at Costco is quieter. Running two in parallel would be pretty awesome. They\are $450 each.

But since we all love the Honda units. Let me tell a story. During the blackouts we hooked 3000 watt generators to crucial traffic lights. The city took care of one intersection without telling us. I pull up and see the lights operational. Huh? I get out of my truck to investigate. I see nothing. I look at the controller box and I see some old traffic signs leaning against it and I walk closer. Then I hear it. There is a generator! I quiet one! It was the new Honda 3000 Handi model. It just buzzes. So quiet! It’s lighter and comes with a handle and wheels. No electric start to save weight. Only downside is it will only run 4.5 hours on a full tank. But I’m sure the extended run kits would work. It’s a badass generator. I couldn’t find one to save my life during the blackouts. I lucked into my 2200.

[vash]

Oh. Last oct we had 8 days of blackouts.

[1990C4S]

That seems like a lot of load for a 2,000 or 2,200.... I would want an 8kW minimum for my house if we had an extended blackout.

I've posted my 'simple' generator connection system previously. To avoid the inevitable safety lecture I will let you google it. Suffice to say, a moron might shouldn't do it. Do it properly and it's zero risk.

[aigel]

Thanks guys!

It sure sounds like this is another area you can't really cheapen out on.

I don't need backup power for just a 24 hour outage. The freezers are well insulated and not opened much, fine for 2+ days in an outage, even in summer.

My concern is the PG&E situation and safety shut downs for fire danger. Another concern is everyone being home in summer for another stay at home order and cranking up their home a/c during a heat wave, killing the grid. It could be a week or two and then my freezers will thaw and I can throw out all the critters I hunted and fished for with great excitement and effort. I love my critters.

This is not my "forever home", otherwise I'd invest in a solar system with batteries to support me off grid period. That's $$$ and not transferable easily to a tenant or renter.

So, taking everything into account here, maybe the best way to go is a smaller unit and just fire it up and move power around from appliance to appliance to keep the freezers cold. The freezers have thermometers, so I have data without having to open them.

Is this the unit you mentioned, Vash:
https://www.costco.com/a-ipower-1600w-running--2000w-peak-yamaha-gasoline-powered-inverter-generator.product.100343958.html
Or should I bite the bullet and get a Honda 3000?

That would be a good start - could experiment and see what it carries - and I could buy a second if it worked well for me. I have NATO 20liter jerry cans I used to carry with a thirsty SUV in the outdoors that I can fill with stabilizer and keep around in preparation for power outage season.I could get oil and plugs and service it per instructions.

G

[aigel]

This looks good - I would not mind something loud in a frame. I think some of the other generators are geared towards camping and low noise. Just like a dishwasher, now you probably pay for sound insulation.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Honda-2800-Watt-Gasoline-Powered-Portable-Inverter-Generator-with-Eco-Throttle-and-Oil-Alert-EG2800i/303814132?MERCH=REC-_-pipsem-_-206192156-_-303814132-_-N

G

[aigel]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

That seems like a lot of load for a 2,000 or 2,200.... I would want an 8kW minimum for my house if we had an extended blackout.

I've posted my 'simple' generator connection system previously. To avoid the inevitable safety lecture I will let you google it. Suffice to say, a moron might shouldn't do it. Do it properly and it's zero risk.

I don't think I'd do the male-male plug ends. I am not that poor. If I wanted it into the house, I'd just have it set up with a switch box. Something to consider. Maybe I should get a 3kW and send it to select circuits with a switch box.

That said, I am curious how you do the widowmaker hookup? You turn of main breaker to the house and then plug it in where? And how do you control what comes on int he house? Breaker box?

Cheers,

G

[Rusty Heap]

Costco has a dual fuel..............I can power almost my whole house off it.

Not too bad on the dB's, mid 80's-90 db?

for $700 it's a lot of generator with 7500 watt running and 9400 peak.


love the electric start too.

,
https://www.costco.com/firman-7500w-running--9400w-peak-dual-fuel-generator.product.100417697.html

[vash]

Originally Posted by aigel

Thanks guys!

It sure sounds like this is another area you can't really cheapen out on.

I don't need backup power for just a 24 hour outage. The freezers are well insulated and not opened much, fine for 2+ days in an outage, even in summer.

My concern is the PG&E situation and safety shut downs for fire danger. Another concern is everyone being home in summer for another stay at home order and cranking up their home a/c during a heat wave, killing the grid. It could be a week or two and then my freezers will thaw and I can throw out all the critters I hunted and fished for with great excitement and effort. I love my critters.

This is not my "forever home", otherwise I'd invest in a solar system with batteries to support me off grid period. That's $$$ and not transferable easily to a tenant or renter.

So, taking everything into account here, maybe the best way to go is a smaller unit and just fire it up and move power around from appliance to appliance to keep the freezers cold. The freezers have thermometers, so I have data without having to open them.

Is this the unit you mentioned, Vash:
https://www.costco.com/a-ipower-1600w-running--2000w-peak-yamaha-gasoline-powered-inverter-generator.product.100343958.html
Or should I bite the bullet and get a Honda 3000?

That would be a good start - could experiment and see what it carries - and I could buy a second if it worked well for me. I have NATO 20liter jerry cans I used to carry with a thirsty SUV in the outdoors that I can fill with stabilizer and keep around in preparation for power outage season.I could get oil and plugs and service it per instructions.

G

That’s the one. Comes w a parallel kit. My boss ran two freezers and a fridge with one. They don’t use much juice.

His only complaint is the gas cap gets in the way of his hand when it’s trying to wrap around the handle. He has giant hands.

If you look at the appliance tags, you can do some simple math to find the load requirements. I goggled the math and was shocked his little my fridge takes.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by aigel

For the electrical connections, I am not looking to have a major project that ties into the house electrical panel. Running some power cords would be fine by me.

Instead of various power cords you could turn off non essential things like the hotwater and electrical heating then switch off the mains to the house. then connect the generator to the house with a suicide plug. It works great. Unfortunate name for the plug I know.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

connect the generator to the house with a suicide plug. It works great. Unfortunate name for the plug I know.

Sorry, it's not an unfortunate name, it's inaccurate. "Murder cable" would be closer to the truth.

That's what the transfer panel is for; to isolate the grid so you don't kill people with hillbilly BS.

Otherwise, what happens to the guy working to restore power when you plug it in?

Sure, they take precautions; check for live and isolate the grid side before they start working. Doesn't help them when they're 50 ft up a ladder splicing the wires and you backfeed your generator into them.

Some housewife did that here and killed a Puget Sound worker. Got charged with manslaughter. Can't find the story, but pretty sure she went to jail. Because ignorance and stupidity is not a valid legal defense.

I felt sympathy for him and his family.

[Seahawk]

I have three stand by generators since we lose power, often for a week at a time: One diesel electric start at 5kw, a gas powered (Honda motor) gen and a PTO powered gen (runs off the PTO on my tractors).

My basement is dependent on sump pumps to keep it dry so no power is bad ju-ju! I like the redundancy and I also need to run power at the stable for water and horse stuff.

That said, in your circumstance I would get two smaller generators I could run in parallel. We decided on that route for flight testing of our Unmanned Aerial Systems...while flight test power needs do not exceed 3KW, we often operate from a remote site and any generator issues would cost us a lot of time and money since the UAS range isn't free and down time is always expensive in terms of people.

The peace of mind is worth the extra coin in my book...plus running media (TV and internet, powering laptops) is important out where I live, especially day three plus!

[spuggy]

Oh, and another danger is that when the utility company restores power, the alternator windings in your generator catch fire and set light to your motorhome, house, race car trailer, boat and your wife's SUV:

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/stories/13-How-NOT-to-Connect-a-Portable-Generator.html

[GH85Carrera]

Most of these threads sets me off on a quest to find the perfect generator. It evolves from the cheap POS ones at the hardware store, to a good Honda inverter model and then the old "while you are in there" mode takes over. I end up looking at whole house, natural gas powered units that cost many thousands of dollars, and I choke.

We have very reliable power here. One ice storm knocked out the power for a 26 hour spell, and a few thunderstorms had knocked it out a under 4 to 6 hours over the last 25 years. In fact since I moved to OKC in 1978 I bet I have not had but a few days total of no juice.

In the end, I figure it just has not been worth it for invest in a generator at all. I look at the Honda 2000 or 3000 and think about keeping one in the storage shed and my gas can is a 5 gallon can now and I always keep Stabil in it and always 100% gasoline, no gasohol. Once again, I will resist buying a generator unless I find some killer deal on a Honda.

[vash]

Glen. Lots of used one on the market after everyone bought one last October. Shipping might suck.

My neighbor is gonna sell hers. She just got solar with batteries. She is 91 and poops money. She said, “ I can’t take it with me”.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by spuggy

Oh, and another danger is that when the utility company restores power, the alternator windings in your generator catch fire and set light to your motorhome, house, race car trailer, boat and your wife's SUV:

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/stories/13-How-NOT-to-Connect-a-Portable-Generator.html

Or you could just follow a few simple steps. Only a complete moron would leave the main breaker on. And the real risk is not a fire on your end, it's electrocuting a sleepy linesman.

If you fear 120 VAC, this is not the solution for you. That doesn't mean it's a death trap.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

Or you could just follow a few simple steps. Only a complete moron would leave the main breaker on. And the real risk is not a fire on your end, it's electrocuting a sleepy linesman.

If you fear 120 VAC, this is not the solution for you. That doesn't mean it's a death trap.

Do not ever call an electrical lineman "sleepy!!" AFA morons go about one in 10 people qualify when it comes to electricity, if not less. If you count only women, then 99 out of 100 can't understand the requirements unless it's all completely Hoyle. This means if there are more than 2 steps to re-energize a home, they will fail.

I'm a contractor and my license allows me to do electrical work, so I know.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by spuggy

Sorry, it's not an unfortunate name, it's inaccurate. "Murder cable" would be closer to the truth.

I thought that would wind somebody up.