SBR - How To Do It Legally?
 

Trying to learn what it takes to legally own a short barrelled rifle.

For example, I can’t see spending what it takes for a genuine Thompson SMG ($15K), and don’t have any real interest in full auto, but there are Auto-Ordnance repros that are just like the real deal except a goofy long barrel. If a fella wanted to install a short barrel, what’s necessary to not go to jail?

Same with the original Uzi subgun ($8K), there are new repros that have awkwardly long barrels.

FN PS90 similar issue.

Anyone know this stuff?

Okay. We can’t acronym everything can we?

Oops I mean “WCAECW’

Thompson Sub Machine Guns are my favorite Short Barreled Rifle. Shooting a full automatic one was always a bucket list item of mine. Last year forMy birthday my oldest son bought me range time at his club with an authentic Untouchables-era Thompson. It was a blast.

I don’t know what the specific barrel requirements are but I do know the federal Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) has the minimums. You have to be aware of both the barrel size and the overall length. You would also have to check with your state to see if they are more restrictive than the CFR.

I had a neighbor who passed away at the age of 94 or so a couple years ago and he had a genuine UZI full auto sub machine gun. We were talking about his front yard being converted to a artificial stuff and he said "want to see my interesting guns"? Of course I said yes as he knew I made muzzle loading rifles and pistols and would be interested.

He brought out a large stiff leather briefcase and opened it and unwrapped a Colt model 1911 that had 8 notches carved in walnut grips (not stock). He said that was from his time in Army intelligence during the Korean conflict as he was part of a 3 person team (a Korean man and Korean woman) that would very carefully get up across the 38th parallel and shot a "bad" person! I thought that was really neat then he said he transferred to the "State Department" in Central America and had a different weapon...the UZI! After he retired he was "blessed" as he put it to keep it. He did mention there were probably people down there who did not like him still!

Anyways, the whole point is there has to be something "special, very special" to have a SBR or full auto or Glock w/silencer or......and in CA it has to go way over the sate's rules and regulations. Good luck.

SIG Sauer patented a special arm brace, which is basically a buttstock, but called an arm brace, for sub-16" rifles. They are so similar to regular rifle buttstocks, you would be hard pressed to explain the difference. So basically, you can do any kind of AR build you want with a sub-16" barrel, throw on an "arm" or "pistol" brace and, voila - it's a totally legal SBR, but legally called an AR pistol. I would think ATF would oppose this just on the grounds of it denying them all the revenue for SBR applications. But they have approved it and there many, many millions of them out there.

Wow... Cool :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589427843.jpg

That looks like a first generation brace. They are way, way more subtle these days. I've heard ATF won't care if you shoulder it at a public range. But if they bust you for other stuff, shouldering it at a range could catch you an SBR charge. Dunno if it's been tested in court yet.

Well, well, Auto-Ordnance sells a SBR semi-auto Thompson.

Here’s my logic. I want a pistol caliber because you can shoot them at more ranges, and a lot cheaper than a rifle caliber. I want a SBR because if you’re shooting a pistol cartridge, seems silly to use a 18” barrel.

A friend took me to his range and we had fun with his AR15 carbine with a .22 kit - that would be a nice option too. He says it is easy to convert to/from .223.

How about a 9mm semi-auto Thompson?

That may sound like sacrilege but 9mm would have to be cheaper than .45.

When I was looking into getting an UZI a friend who has shot both said the 9mm is a great gun, and the .45ACP is almost unmanageable. He said too much barrel lift wit the fast fire. So I'm guessing much the same rules would apply to other short barrel full autos too.

I don’t think the PS90 qualifies as a short barrel because of how far back the receiver is.

JYL, I think this is the information you are looking for (with acronyms explained):

You will go to a class 3 SOT FFL dealer (Special Occupational Tax Federal Firearms License) in your state and fill out paperwork to apply for a $200 tax stamp for the purchase or manufacture of an SBR (short barreled rifle). You will also need to get fingerprinted by a local law enforcement agency. That paperwork is submitted to BATF and then you wait for approval. It used to take a long time but the wait time has dropped to 3-6 months now because some aspects of the application are electronic now. If you've ever been arrested I would check with a lawyer specializing NFA trusts (National Firearms Act) to see if you would be denied based upon your particular situation. I say this because it is expensive to buy or have the gun manufactured and then have the dealer hold onto it until your tax stamp comes in plus the application, fingerprinting & $200 tax stamp also cost money. If you are denied, I believe you eat those costs (not sure on the $200 tax stamp, I was not denied, so don't know) but you are kind of at the mercy of the dealer holding the gun you paid for. I don't think the dealer would hose you but in the case of you having a specific SBR built that he can't readily sell to another party may mean that you take a partial loss.

If you live in California, you are possibly out of luck. The NFA allows US citizens to buy machine guns that already exist in the BATF registry, silencers, SBR's, destructive devices, SBS (short barreled shotguns), etc. The individual states then can add additional restrictions. CA only allows SBR's as Curios & Relics only. A newly manufactured SBR that you want is not in this classification.

Oregon is good to go for all aspects of Title II (NFA) firearms.

Washington state allows SBR's & silencers but won't allow machine guns.

BTW, once a gun is made and registered as a SBR you cannot undo that. Lets say you have a SBR AR15 with a 7.5 in barrel (that is a real flamethrower in low light!) and want to move to a state that won't allow possession of it, you cannot swap out the barrel or upper for a legal 16" barrel. The gun will have to be sold to a class 3 dealer or to another person through a class 3 dealer. Hopefully you don't live in CA so you can realize your dream.

Don't expect any SBR or SBS in California.

Federal laws allow rifles to be as short as 28 or so inches in length with out a tax stamp as long as the barrel is 16"

California is 30" overall and no chance of getting a tax stamp.

Funny thing about the tax stamp is that the $200 was the price of a Thompson back in 1934 when the tax stamps came in to play. So a 100% tax was what you would pay to go full auto add another 100% tax for a less than 16" barrel.

45 ACP rounds actually are faster out of a 14" barrel than a 16" barrel. I thought about back boring my Marlin Camp 45's barrel so it would remain 16" but the bore wouldn't touch the round after 14" the velocity would increase.

AOW (any other weapon) is the only odd items available to own in California https://www.impactguns.com/aow/ there's a $5.00 tax stamp on them. If I had cash to burn I would buy one for the novelty but I really like my wrists and don't need to spend the cash right now.

I wonder if my Sheriff would allow that on a CCW?

You have never been in the military have you. The Air Force I know has an acronym for about everything. My dad had to give a presentation to a large group at the Air War College at Maxwell, AFB. I wish I had recorded him telling the story. He had a few sentences just full of acronyms. More acronyms than nouns of verbs. Dad said one of the generals that had pushed for acronyms to shorten the meetings looked confused.

This is accurate. An llc can also hold the tax stamp, but the principal(s) of the LLC are subject to the background check.

This looks like a fun way to clang some steel.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uCHnz9sild0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

gun trust

The PS90 has a much longer barrel than a P90, hence their legal sale without a NFA tax stamp.

P90:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a/af/P90--.png

PS90:
https://grabagun.com/media/catalog/p.../6/2/62617.png

Just want to clarify a few things:

The above is true if you are looking to purchase an existing SBR (form 4). However, you can also "manufacture" your own (form 1), either from scratch, or using an existing non-NFA receiver. If you go that route, you are not required to use an FFL/SOT to do so. You still need to submit photo and fingerprints (and the $200 tax stamp fee), but the e-file system will prompt/guide you. Also, you can obtain fingerprints from any certified/approved fingerprinter...doesn't have to be a LE agency.

Not true. All that is needed to remove a Title II SBR from NFA purview, is to reconfigure it as a Title I gun. The only caveat to that is if you wish to sell/transfer it to someone else. You can still legally transfer it if configured as a Title I gun, but it not wise to do so until you send a letter to the ATF advising them that the gun is no longer an SBR. They will notate the registry and you would then have no liability going forward, should the new owner do something stupid like illegally convert it back to an SBR without going through the proper process.

;)

Eric, I see “parts kits” - for example, for semi auto Thompsons with the authentic short barrel (M1 type). I don’t understand what those are - is this a way to make a SBR using the route you described?

Ahh got it Flipper, yeah I have the PS90.

Most of the "parts kits" are original/surplus machine guns that have the receiver removed or destroyed, as to not constitute a "firearm" any longer. Really only useful to those who have older registered full-auto Thompsons ($$$), or FFL/SOT holders who can make/own "new" (post 1986) machine guns. Some kits do have the receivers in place, but are welded (permanently non-op), and ATF approved as display pieces.

If you are simply looking for a short-barrel semi-auto version of the Thompson M1, you have two choices:

1. Buy an existing Auto Ordnance semi-auto M1 SBR (form 4 transfer).
2. Buy an existing Auto Ordnance semi-auto M1 rifle, and convert it into an SBR yourself (form 1 "build").

The latter option would be a quicker process with no FFL needed. However, it would end up being more expensive, with the additional cost of the shorter barrel, plus the correct tools/know-how to do the barrel swap.
You would also have to engrave the receiver with the new "manufacturer" (your name, or the name of your gun trust) + city & state.

;)

Ah parts kits with fa fcg.

Look at it this way as well. Parts kit route can be built into a legal SA. Dispose/sell the FA stuff, build on a semi receiver, use SA fcg. If you build the receiver using a 80%. The firearm is as they say a ghost gun. I have a few firearms from parts kits using 100% receivers and logged as such through a ffl... Some came from 80%'ers. Those are not logged and are essentially just taking up space. Which reminds me... I need to order a few parts from numrich...

Eric, in regards to your posts about creating (i.e. manufacturing) your own SBR and then being able to change it back...I have no knowledge in regards to either of those actions but was told that it was not allowed. If you have actually done this, then I defer to your experience/knowledge. I just wanted the OP to know about the actual process that I went through. I still think it would be easier to go to an FFL/SOT to get your SBR because, at least here, they help you with the paperwork and the whole process is just easier.

Ok, which would you choose - all these are semi-auto:

New Thompson M1A1 replica SBR from Auto-Ordnance, about $2500 (excludes stamp, etc).
- Iconic look, .45, heavy, arguably better than the original (fires from closed bolt).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589556812.png

Used IMI Uzi with SBR conversion, about $3500
- Also iconic although kind of anti-social looking, 9 mm

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589556839.png

FN PS90 with SBR conversion, about $3000
- Space gun, 5.7x28 mm, 50 rd mag, designed for optic, can hang lights etc,

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589556860.png

Very different guns, of course.

What would it get used for? To be honest, nothing much. Range time, bug out, etc.

uzi. can change calibers.

Personally... Either an old FA to SA ppsh/m31 9mm short barrel for fun. AKM short barrel are still very effective on FPS/Muzzle velocity. You're not going to be using it to clear rooms full of Bolsheviks. I would get the akm.

Sort of related:
Anyone notice the Chinese suppressors being sold on Wish, AliExpress, etc? They're being advertised as "Solvent Filters" or similar. Seems like a great way to get yourself in deep ****.

Edit: Looks like this has been happening for a while, and i only now noticed.

Yeah, the NFA laws are often misinterpreted and/or misquoted. I've heard all sorts of misinformation out there, even from Class III FFLs.
Not surprising actually, as the NFA laws are more confusing than the tax code, and often intentionally vague. It's ridiculous...

So, as far as the NFA branch is concerned, a Title II SBR is no longer under NFA purview if/when it is configured back to a Title I gun. It is a physical definition, so as long as the physical properties are restored (barrel length of 16"+, etc.), then it is by definition, no longer an SBR. If you do convert an SBR back to a Title I gun, the NFA "recommends" that you notify them (via letter) that the firearm is no longer an SBR, but it is not a legal requirement to do so. If you do send in such a notification, it does not "remove" that gun from the registry, but simply notates that it is no longer an SBR.

As such, it is a permanent move. IOW, once you send in that letter, you can not reconfigure it back to an SBR, without going through the process all over again. So, the only prudent reasons to send in such a notification letter would be: 1. If you are moving to an area where SBRs are not allowed on the state/local level. And 2. When you intend to sell it. That way, when you transfer it as a Title I gun, you are covered if the new owner should illegally convert it to a Title II gun and then say "I bought it like that" (basically insuring yourself against possible charges of illegally transferring a Title II gun). Hope that makes sense, lol...

And FWIW, you can't "un-configure" a machine gun, or suppressor, etc. Also, if your SBR started life as a Title I rifle, you can only return it back to a rifle, and not into a pistol (originally a rifle, always a rifle). However, if your SBR started life as a pistol, you can return it back to a pistol OR rifle. See what I mean about "confusing"? LOL...

And that is only the federal stuff. You have to also be aware of your state/local laws!
Totally. Good info, I just wanted to clarify the points mentioned. ;)

Most Class III FFL's will help you through the process for sure (some better than others). And it's basically the only option as a non-licensee unless you want to Form 1 something yourself. However, if you are looking at something your FFL doesn't have in their inventory, it can be a bit spendy, depending on what your FFL charges, and what the status is of the SBR you are looking to purchase (form 3 vs. form 4).
In some cases it will require 2 tax fees ($400) and 2 FFL transfers ($XXX).

So, going the Form 1 route is often easier/faster/cheaper (DIY e-file). But it depends on what your priorities/goals are, and what firearm you are dealing with. For an AR, it's dead easy. For something like the Thompson that the OP is considering, it's a bit more complicated as the "serialized" part is the upper receiver, not the lower. With a Form 1, there is no FFL involvement, no FFL transfer fees, no potential "double" tax-stamp fees, and no need for your item to be held in "jail" by your FFL. Also, depending on the item in question, you are able to use the gun (configured as a Title I of course) up until the time your approval/stamp comes in. ;)

this......

No...At least not exactly/entirely.

(read my replies/clarifications on post # 19 & 28).

FWIW, I had a sbr ak At the end of the day, it wasn't worth the cost, hassle and being on the ATF's radar. And you can't let anyone else discharge the firearm, unless the gun is in a gun trust /llc tax stamp situation or you're in violation of the law. Its stupid.

Yeah, especially since the advent (and ATF approval) of the "pistol brace" and the subsequent proliferation of short-barrel "pistol" configurations of the popular platforms.
These are basically SBRs with a pistol "brace" in place of a traditional stock, which you can own without any of the NFA hassles/restricions/fees (see Rick Lee's previous post).
There are a couple things to be mindful there though (vertical forward grips not allowed, etc.).
You can let others shoot your SBR as long as you are present. You just can't let others transfer, transport, or otherwise "possess" them.

No argument here regarding your last sentence. ;)

Hmm, the cost and availability of 5.7 x 28 mm is a definite negative. $0.60-$1.00/round if you can even get it.

The five seven will go through soft body armor... That's the appeal.

This choice is harder than I expected.

Ok, chose.

I’ll be buying a non NFA gun and doing the conversion.

Now, I’ve never bought a gun online before. There’s a well-reviewed seller on GunsAmerica, not a FFL, I have my local FFL lined up to receive and transfer the gun. Any tips?

Is it just me? ... I've never liked the idea of a short barrelled rifle because of a "perceived" safety issue.
In a high stress situation it seems like it would be way to easy to shoot your own hand compared to a regular rifle.
This is also one of the reason why I've never liked Bullpup rifles.
They look cool and futuristic but their balance if off and again you have that issue of the short barrel.

Of course I'm a novice compared to the gun guys here so I'm probably wrong but I thought it may be worth mentioning.

Anyways... Ian is one of the better "less gung-ho" YouTube contributors. (Most are frankly annoying)

Here's something interesting and it's available in lots of different rifle and pistol calibres.
(Note the use of standard AR15 mags with an insert for 9mm)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GBxsF41_--Q" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Owwww... I likey this one!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KGRzxV5WVLk" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I want one from the movies that has the 11,000 round mags that all fit in the handle of a automatic pistol. Wait, those are what the bad guys use, and they can't ever hit the hero, just soot behind him with the accuracy of a storm trooper, so maybe not a good choice.

A buddy of mine bought a Mac 10 back in the 70s, and I was never sure if it was 100% legal. It sure looked like a home made cheap POS but he said they all looked that way.

Yea... the MAC10 I picked up many years ago was new and a POS. Don't remember the company
that made it. I ran maybe 100 rounds through it and got rid of it. It reminded me of a throw away phone. Kind of like a Harbor Freight tool. Did the job but don't count on it for many more.

Where is the Love for the Ruger 9mm PC Carbine? Real short barrel and a "Take-down" that uses
either Glock or Ruger mags.