SBR - How To Do It Legally?

[jyl]

Trying to learn what it takes to legally own a short barrelled rifle.

For example, I can’t see spending what it takes for a genuine Thompson SMG ($15K), and don’t have any real interest in full auto, but there are Auto-Ordnance repros that are just like the real deal except a goofy long barrel. If a fella wanted to install a short barrel, what’s necessary to not go to jail?

Same with the original Uzi subgun ($8K), there are new repros that have awkwardly long barrels.

FN PS90 similar issue.

Anyone know this stuff?

[vash]

Okay. We can’t acronym everything can we?

Oops I mean “WCAECW’

[MRM]

Thompson Sub Machine Guns are my favorite Short Barreled Rifle. Shooting a full automatic one was always a bucket list item of mine. Last year forMy birthday my oldest son bought me range time at his club with an authentic Untouchables-era Thompson. It was a blast.

I don’t know what the specific barrel requirements are but I do know the federal Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) has the minimums. You have to be aware of both the barrel size and the overall length. You would also have to check with your state to see if they are more restrictive than the CFR.

[John Rogers]

I had a neighbor who passed away at the age of 94 or so a couple years ago and he had a genuine UZI full auto sub machine gun. We were talking about his front yard being converted to a artificial stuff and he said "want to see my interesting guns"? Of course I said yes as he knew I made muzzle loading rifles and pistols and would be interested.

He brought out a large stiff leather briefcase and opened it and unwrapped a Colt model 1911 that had 8 notches carved in walnut grips (not stock). He said that was from his time in Army intelligence during the Korean conflict as he was part of a 3 person team (a Korean man and Korean woman) that would very carefully get up across the 38th parallel and shot a "bad" person! I thought that was really neat then he said he transferred to the "State Department" in Central America and had a different weapon...the UZI! After he retired he was "blessed" as he put it to keep it. He did mention there were probably people down there who did not like him still!

Anyways, the whole point is there has to be something "special, very special" to have a SBR or full auto or Glock w/silencer or......and in CA it has to go way over the sate's rules and regulations. Good luck.

[Rick Lee]

SIG Sauer patented a special arm brace, which is basically a buttstock, but called an arm brace, for sub-16" rifles. They are so similar to regular rifle buttstocks, you would be hard pressed to explain the difference. So basically, you can do any kind of AR build you want with a sub-16" barrel, throw on an "arm" or "pistol" brace and, voila - it's a totally legal SBR, but legally called an AR pistol. I would think ATF would oppose this just on the grounds of it denying them all the revenue for SBR applications. But they have approved it and there many, many millions of them out there.

[sc_rufctr]

Wow... Cool

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Wow... Cool

That looks like a first generation brace. They are way, way more subtle these days. I've heard ATF won't care if you shoulder it at a public range. But if they bust you for other stuff, shouldering it at a range could catch you an SBR charge. Dunno if it's been tested in court yet.

[jyl]

Well, well, Auto-Ordnance sells a SBR semi-auto Thompson.

Here’s my logic. I want a pistol caliber because you can shoot them at more ranges, and a lot cheaper than a rifle caliber. I want a SBR because if you’re shooting a pistol cartridge, seems silly to use a 18” barrel.

A friend took me to his range and we had fun with his AR15 carbine with a .22 kit - that would be a nice option too. He says it is easy to convert to/from .223.

[sc_rufctr]

How about a 9mm semi-auto Thompson?

That may sound like sacrilege but 9mm would have to be cheaper than .45.

[Bill Douglas]

When I was looking into getting an UZI a friend who has shot both said the 9mm is a great gun, and the .45ACP is almost unmanageable. He said too much barrel lift wit the fast fire. So I'm guessing much the same rules would apply to other short barrel full autos too.

[911boost]

I don’t think the PS90 qualifies as a short barrel because of how far back the receiver is.

[mpeastend]

JYL, I think this is the information you are looking for (with acronyms explained):

You will go to a class 3 SOT FFL dealer (Special Occupational Tax Federal Firearms License) in your state and fill out paperwork to apply for a $200 tax stamp for the purchase or manufacture of an SBR (short barreled rifle). You will also need to get fingerprinted by a local law enforcement agency. That paperwork is submitted to BATF and then you wait for approval. It used to take a long time but the wait time has dropped to 3-6 months now because some aspects of the application are electronic now. If you've ever been arrested I would check with a lawyer specializing NFA trusts (National Firearms Act) to see if you would be denied based upon your particular situation. I say this because it is expensive to buy or have the gun manufactured and then have the dealer hold onto it until your tax stamp comes in plus the application, fingerprinting & $200 tax stamp also cost money. If you are denied, I believe you eat those costs (not sure on the $200 tax stamp, I was not denied, so don't know) but you are kind of at the mercy of the dealer holding the gun you paid for. I don't think the dealer would hose you but in the case of you having a specific SBR built that he can't readily sell to another party may mean that you take a partial loss.

If you live in California, you are possibly out of luck. The NFA allows US citizens to buy machine guns that already exist in the BATF registry, silencers, SBR's, destructive devices, SBS (short barreled shotguns), etc. The individual states then can add additional restrictions. CA only allows SBR's as Curios & Relics only. A newly manufactured SBR that you want is not in this classification.

Oregon is good to go for all aspects of Title II (NFA) firearms.

Washington state allows SBR's & silencers but won't allow machine guns.

BTW, once a gun is made and registered as a SBR you cannot undo that. Lets say you have a SBR AR15 with a 7.5 in barrel (that is a real flamethrower in low light!) and want to move to a state that won't allow possession of it, you cannot swap out the barrel or upper for a legal 16" barrel. The gun will have to be sold to a class 3 dealer or to another person through a class 3 dealer. Hopefully you don't live in CA so you can realize your dream.

[Jim Bremner]

Don't expect any SBR or SBS in California.

Federal laws allow rifles to be as short as 28 or so inches in length with out a tax stamp as long as the barrel is 16"

California is 30" overall and no chance of getting a tax stamp.

Funny thing about the tax stamp is that the $200 was the price of a Thompson back in 1934 when the tax stamps came in to play. So a 100% tax was what you would pay to go full auto add another 100% tax for a less than 16" barrel.

45 ACP rounds actually are faster out of a 14" barrel than a 16" barrel. I thought about back boring my Marlin Camp 45's barrel so it would remain 16" but the bore wouldn't touch the round after 14" the velocity would increase.

AOW (any other weapon) is the only odd items available to own in California https://www.impactguns.com/aow/ there's a $5.00 tax stamp on them. If I had cash to burn I would buy one for the novelty but I really like my wrists and don't need to spend the cash right now.

I wonder if my Sheriff would allow that on a CCW?

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by vash

Okay. We can’t acronym everything can we?

Oops I mean “WCAECW’

You have never been in the military have you. The Air Force I know has an acronym for about everything. My dad had to give a presentation to a large group at the Air War College at Maxwell, AFB. I wish I had recorded him telling the story. He had a few sentences just full of acronyms. More acronyms than nouns of verbs. Dad said one of the generals that had pushed for acronyms to shorten the meetings looked confused.

[greglepore]

Originally Posted by mpeastend

JYL, I think this is the information you are looking for (with acronyms explained):

You will go to a class 3 SOT FFL dealer (Special Occupational Tax Federal Firearms License) in your state and fill out paperwork to apply for a $200 tax stamp for the purchase or manufacture of an SBR (short barreled rifle). You will also need to get fingerprinted by a local law enforcement agency. That paperwork is submitted to BATF and then you wait for approval. It used to take a long time but the wait time has dropped to 3-6 months now because some aspects of the application are electronic now. If you've ever been arrested I would check with a lawyer specializing NFA trusts (National Firearms Act) to see if you would be denied based upon your particular situation. I say this because it is expensive to buy or have the gun manufactured and then have the dealer hold onto it until your tax stamp comes in plus the application, fingerprinting & $200 tax stamp also cost money. If you are denied, I believe you eat those costs (not sure on the $200 tax stamp, I was not denied, so don't know) but you are kind of at the mercy of the dealer holding the gun you paid for. I don't think the dealer would hose you but in the case of you having a specific SBR built that he can't readily sell to another party may mean that you take a partial loss.

If you live in California, you are possibly out of luck. The NFA allows US citizens to buy machine guns that already exist in the BATF registry, silencers, SBR's, destructive devices, SBS (short barreled shotguns), etc. The individual states then can add additional restrictions. CA only allows SBR's as Curios & Relics only. A newly manufactured SBR that you want is not in this classification.

Oregon is good to go for all aspects of Title II (NFA) firearms.

Washington state allows SBR's & silencers but won't allow machine guns.

BTW, once a gun is made and registered as a SBR you cannot undo that. Lets say you have a SBR AR15 with a 7.5 in barrel (that is a real flamethrower in low light!) and want to move to a state that won't allow possession of it, you cannot swap out the barrel or upper for a legal 16" barrel. The gun will have to be sold to a class 3 dealer or to another person through a class 3 dealer. Hopefully you don't live in CA so you can realize your dream.

This is accurate. An llc can also hold the tax stamp, but the principal(s) of the LLC are subject to the background check.

[dlockhart]

This looks like a fun way to clang some steel.

[Arizona_928]

gun trust

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by 911boost

I don’t think the PS90 qualifies as a short barrel because of how far back the receiver is.

The PS90 has a much longer barrel than a P90, hence their legal sale without a NFA tax stamp.

P90:


PS90:

[Eric Coffey]

Just want to clarify a few things:

Originally Posted by mpeastend

You will go to a class 3 SOT FFL dealer (Special Occupational Tax Federal Firearms License) in your state and fill out paperwork to apply for a $200 tax stamp for the purchase or manufacture of an SBR (short barreled rifle). You will also need to get fingerprinted by a local law enforcement agency. That paperwork is submitted to BATF and then you wait for approval.

The above is true if you are looking to purchase an existing SBR (form 4). However, you can also "manufacture" your own (form 1), either from scratch, or using an existing non-NFA receiver. If you go that route, you are not required to use an FFL/SOT to do so. You still need to submit photo and fingerprints (and the $200 tax stamp fee), but the e-file system will prompt/guide you. Also, you can obtain fingerprints from any certified/approved fingerprinter...doesn't have to be a LE agency.

Originally Posted by mpeastend

BTW, once a gun is made and registered as a SBR you cannot undo that. Lets say you have a SBR AR15 with a 7.5 in barrel (that is a real flamethrower in low light!) and want to move to a state that won't allow possession of it, you cannot swap out the barrel or upper for a legal 16" barrel. The gun will have to be sold to a class 3 dealer or to another person through a class 3 dealer.

Not true. All that is needed to remove a Title II SBR from NFA purview, is to reconfigure it as a Title I gun. The only caveat to that is if you wish to sell/transfer it to someone else. You can still legally transfer it if configured as a Title I gun, but it not wise to do so until you send a letter to the ATF advising them that the gun is no longer an SBR. They will notate the registry and you would then have no liability going forward, should the new owner do something stupid like illegally convert it back to an SBR without going through the proper process.

[jyl]

Eric, I see “parts kits” - for example, for semi auto Thompsons with the authentic short barrel (M1 type). I don’t understand what those are - is this a way to make a SBR using the route you described?