Why do analog "anti-nanny" car guys think modern cars drive themselves on the track?

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by XXX

And on the track my 35 year old 100% driver car
with no power steering, no ABS, no traction control, no tire pressure monitors, or backup cameras,
and a slow shifting transmission is way more fun than
some computer controlled car that the "driver" is just telling the computer where to take the driver.

Car guys say the oddest things.
I've never understood posts like this.

Why do analog car guys think no power steering is such a macho thing to brag about?
Does power steering really make any difference on a track?
On a track, you're giving subtle and small inputs.
Power steering or not is a non-issue.
Power steering only matters when trying to make a U-turn.
If you want to brag, then brag about making a U-turn without power steering.

Does ABS really matter on a track?
I've never locked up my brakes on a track.
ABS only matters when slamming the brakes in the rain or snow.
Are you tracking your car in the rain and snow?
Why do analog car guys think no ABS is such a macho thing to brag about?

Tire pressure monitors?
How do these help on a track?
Why do analog car guys think no tire warning is such a macho thing to brag about?
Everyone has a $20 tire gauge anyway.

Backup cameras?
Do these really make things easier on a track?
Do you use it while in a spin out?
Backup camera only matters in a very crowded parking lot.
If you want to brag, then brag about Whole Foods parking lot with kiddos everywhere without a backup camera.

Traction control?
Are you really giving throttle while having no traction on dry pavement?
Traction control seems to be like ABS, most applicable to rain and snow driving.

What? The "driver" is just telling the computer where to take the driver?
How does that work? Is the car voice controlled like Alexa?
Last time I checked, all cars still had steering wheels.
No one is taking level 5 autonomous cars to the track.
They don't even exist yet.

[GH85Carrera]

Have you ever driven an 100% manual car at an autocross? I was talking about our regional autocross, not a track day. The course is all 1st and second gear, mostly 1st. It is all about fast steering.

Power steering would be nice for slow speed tight turn and parking lots, but the Porsche engineers did not provide it in the 1980s. My car takes ALL my shoulder strength to make really tight turns on an autocross course. It is nothing macho or bragging, it is just the facts. It is a real handicap for those corners. The Autocross on Sunday had a very tight turn to slow cars down for the exit. It was almost impossible to do in my car.

And any hard braking takes true skill to not lock up a tire or all the tires with no ABS, even on an autocross track.

My post was done in mostly humors way. No doubt at all a cheap Boxster S would be a far better choice for the autocross. I have been autocrossing my 911 for 25 years, and likely have done close to 200 autocrosses in it, and many different high speed track days. On the track, power steering is simply not needed, but ABS would sure be nice.

And if you are not feeling your ABS on a track, you are not stopping at even close to the limits of the brakes. That is why ABS is not allowed on most all race cars. They want the driver to modulate the brakes, not the computer. And most race cars have no traction control. My car is no race car, not even close. It is a comfortable highway GT cruiser street car. My wife is happy to ride with me on 6,000 mile road trips.

Modern cars are simply better at everything. No doubt. I drive my 85 911 all over the country 40 states and Canada so far. I plan to hit all the lower 48 states.

My post was supposed to be a humorous comparison of the difference in the 20 something folks driving a 2020 car compared to old man driving a car far older than most of the other drivers there.

[GH85Carrera]

A new car of today is mostly a drive by wire computer with an engine. It works for airplanes and cars. All pedals and the steering is drive by wire. The driver is just giving input to the computer. The computer then decides how to follow the inputs. If you tell it to do something beyond normal input, it will indeed override your input and make it happen.

The modern Porsches are mostly going to that. It is only because it is safer, and faster. They engineers don't do that just because they can.

Since 2012 all new cars are required to have traction control and ABS.

[Pazuzu]

I drive an analog Porsche at my home.

I drove a fully computertastic Cayman on the Porsche track.

The Caymen would double downshift automagically in hard corners, it would let me threshold brake without thinking about modulation, it didn't ever let me wiggle the tail in tight esses...basically, it made me FEEL like a kick-butt track driver, with only an hour experience. I didn't have to think about the CAR at all, because it took care of itself, so I could just think about the TRACK.

If I had taken my car on the track, it would be weeks before I felt like I was advancing along, because I'd be missing shifts left and right, waggling the butt out into the grass over and over, locking up the brakes, stalling, etc.

There's no question that a computer defined car turns some shlub like me into a potential danger on the track, because it lets you feel invincible.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Car guys say the oddest things.
I've never understood posts like this.

Why do analog car guys think no power steering is such a macho thing to brag about?
Does power steering really make any difference on a track?
On a track, you're giving subtle and small inputs.
Power steering or not is a non-issue.
Power steering only matters when trying to make a U-turn.
If you want to brag, then brag about making a U-turn without power steering.

power steering or no power steering absolutely makes a difference in how a car drives and the feed back that you get from it when it is pushed. Maybe you or whoever wrote this hasn't driven the right car to notice the difference.

Does ABS really matter on a track?
I've never locked up my brakes on a track.
ABS only matters when slamming the brakes in the rain or snow.
Are you tracking your car in the rain and snow?
Why do analog car guys think no ABS is such a macho thing to brag about?

Really? Maybe you aren't braking hard enough.

Tire pressure monitors?
How do these help on a track?
Why do analog car guys think no tire warning is such a macho thing to brag about?
Everyone has a $20 tire gauge anyway.

TPMS is not a nanny and is potentially actually useful. Anyone bragging about the lack of TPMS is a bit odd IMO

Backup cameras?
Do these really make things easier on a track?
Do you use it while in a spin out?
Backup camera only matters in a very crowded parking lot.
If you want to brag, then brag about Whole Foods parking lot with kiddos everywhere without a backup camera.

Again, not a nanny, and not usually used, but in my car, at least, it could be turned on full time. I'm not sure how that would be better than using the mirrors. Has anyone ever actually bragged about not having a backup camera on the track? Or are you just mixing up "I like having a car that doesn't have all of the fancy new tech" with "I prefer to be on the track in a car with no nannies so I learn how to drive" which are two different things.

Traction control?
Are you really giving throttle while having no traction on dry pavement?
Traction control seems to be like ABS, most applicable to rain and snow driving.

Are you lumping stability control in with traction control (they are two different but overlapping things). Stability control is HUGE on the track. If you've never engaged it, then you're probably not trying hard enough (or just the most amazing driver in the history of driving).

What? The "driver" is just telling the computer where to take the driver?
How does that work? Is the car voice controlled like Alexa?
Last time I checked, all cars still had steering wheels.
No one is taking level 5 autonomous cars to the track.
They don't even exist yet.

What are you talking about?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Have you ever driven an 100% manual car at an autocross? I was talking about our regional autocross, not a track day. The course is all 1st and second gear, mostly 1st. It is all about fast steering.

Power steering would be nice for slow speed tight turn and parking lots, but the Porsche engineers did not provide it in the 1980s. My car takes ALL my shoulder strength to make really tight turns on an autocross course. It is nothing macho or bragging, it is just the facts. It is a real handicap for those corners. The Autocross on Sunday had a very tight turn to slow cars down for the exit. It was almost impossible to do in my car.

And any hard braking takes true skill to not lock up a tire or all the tires with no ABS, even on an autocross track.

My post was done in mostly humors way. No doubt at all a cheap Boxster S would be a far better choice for the autocross. I have been autocrossing my 911 for 25 years, and likely have done close to 200 autocrosses in it, and many different high speed track days. On the track, power steering is simply not needed, but ABS would sure be nice.

And if you are not feeling your ABS on a track, you are not stopping at even close to the limits of the brakes. That is why ABS is not allowed on most all race cars. They want the driver to modulate the brakes, not the computer. And most race cars have no traction control. My car is no race car, not even close. It is a comfortable highway GT cruiser street car. My wife is happy to ride with me on 6,000 mile road trips.

Modern cars are simply better at everything. No doubt. I drive my 85 911 all over the country 40 states and Canada so far. I plan to hit all the lower 48 states.

My post was supposed to be a humorous comparison of the difference in the 20 something folks driving a 2020 car compared to old man driving a car far older than most of the other drivers there.

I must have missed your post, that I guess must have precipitated this post?

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by masraum

I must have missed your post, that I guess must have precipitated this post?

Likely. As an old guy driving a 35 year old 911 I was just amazed at the autocross we held this Sunday at how many "kids" that were very young driving new cars and really happy to see them. I was once 19, with a new 1974 914 2.0 and I was ultra competitive back then. Now I just go to have fun, and I guess my weird sense of humor is missed by many folks. I only autocross for my enjoyment and don't care one wit if some 19 year old driving a 2020 Scion is faster than me.

To see the 19 and 20 something crowd from SCCA out on track was wonderful. It makes me hope the car guy culture will live on. They are driving a computer, and the computer is driving the car. There was guys with new cars and most were from the last few years. Only one Camaro from 1999 and my old 1985 Carrera. I am the dinosaur, I get that. We did not run for any trophies, or any prize at all. It is timed only so the driver can see if they did better or worse than the last run.

I have driven a new Cayman and a 911 on the track and it is just a fantastic car. It downshifts two gears in milliseconds, and the stability and traction control are just astonishing. Stand on the loud pedal and it up-shifts faster than one can blink, literately. Lots faster, but so what. I still think my old 911 is just more fun driven fast.

Just an opinion. My old man opinion.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Track time factors for modern cars compared to an analog car on a technical tight turn race track:
PDK = 2 seconds per lap
ABS = 1 more
PASM = 2 more

Its amazing to watch PASM in action though on a modern car.
I've noticed that when a Cayman is powering around a high speed sweeper, you can actually see the inside rear corner of the car get lower to the track.

I affectionately call this the "Cayman squat"
When you see the Cayman driver in the paddock, it is then appropriate to squat briefly in deference to what you saw on the track.

Really makes you tired by the end of the day, this is not a problem @ vintage events.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Likely. As an old guy driving a 35 year old 911 I was just amazed at the autocross we held this Sunday at how many "kids" that were very young driving new cars and really happy to see them. I was once 19, with a new 1974 914 2.0 and I was ultra competitive back then. Now I just go to have fun, and I guess my weird sense of humor is missed by many folks. I only autocross for my enjoyment and don't care one wit if some 19 year old driving a 2020 Scion is faster than me.

To see the 19 and 20 something crowd from SCCA out on track was wonderful. It makes me hope the car guy culture will live on. They are driving a computer, and the computer is driving the car. There was guys with new cars and most were from the last few years. Only one Camaro from 1999 and my old 1985 Carrera. I am the dinosaur, I get that. We did not run for any trophies, or any prize at all. It is timed only so the driver can see if they did better or worse than the last run.

I have driven a new Cayman and a 911 on the track and it is just a fantastic car. It downshifts two gears in milliseconds, and the stability and traction control are just astonishing. Stand on the loud pedal and it up-shifts faster than one can blink, literately. Lots faster, but so what. I still think my old 911 is just more fun driven fast.

Just an opinion. My old man opinion.

I never tracked my old '88 targa, but I wish I had. I did drive enthusiastically at times and places where it was safe to do so. It was an amazing, engaging car to drive. My new boxster is amazing, and it's capabilities are greater than the old 911, but from a certain point of view, the 911 was more enjoyable.

[70SWT]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

The computer then decides how to follow the inputs...it will indeed override your input...

I think this is a key point. I like a car that does EXACTLY what I tell it at all times, and doesn't make its own decisions.

Which comes down to priorities. If you prioritize safety at all costs, for which there is a strong argument, then maybe you are OK with the computer occasionally correcting things to reel you in. If you want the fastest possible lap times, then certainly the computer, PDK etc. can outperform you.

If you just want a visceral experience over which you have 100% control - that's me - then no nannies, please.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by 70SWT

I think this is a key point. I like a car that does EXACTLY what I tell it at all times, and doesn't make its own decisions.

Which comes down to priorities. If you prioritize safety at all costs, for which there is a strong argument, then maybe you are OK with the computer occasionally correcting things to reel you in. If you want the fastest possible lap times, then certainly the computer, PDK etc. can outperform you.

If you just want a visceral experience over which you have 100% control - that's me - then no nannies, please.

Yep, I am the same way. I drove Laguna Secca and that was a bucket list track.



Feeling the tires squirm going through the corkscrew and nailing it just right was a thrill impossible to describe other than scary FUN. It was a real pucker factor to push hard there.

At the pits the guy next to me was in a new Cayman and he and the instructor were getting out just after I had parked. The instructor was explaining to the driver how the stability control had saved them from a spin in turn one. It is a really LONG corner. I just made it a double apex corner in my car. Fun day at the track.

[Tobra]

OP

[70SWT]

That pucker factor is the appeal. I don't want anything that takes away that uniquely 911 feeling somewhere in the middle of the corner of "oh, crap...every instinct is telling me to lift throttle, but I d@mn sure better not. It's all on me." It's a magical and terrifying thing in air-cooled-era cars that are devoid of aids. And it's still there in the 996.

The post that the OP quoted probably overstates things (sure, the car doesn't drive itself when you have the nannies) but the general sentiment of disliking electronic aids is a valid one.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by 70SWT

That pucker factor is the appeal. I don't want anything that takes away that uniquely 911 feeling somewhere in the middle of the corner of "oh, crap...every instinct is telling me to lift throttle, but I d@mn sure better not. It's all on me." It's a magical and terrifying thing in air-cooled-era cars that are devoid of aids. And it's still there in the 996.

The post that the OP quoted probably overstates things (sure, the car doesn't drive itself when you have the nannies) but the general sentiment of disliking electronic aids is a valid one.

When I had my old 911, I tested and probed the TTO and throttle steerability that I'd heard and read so much about. It was an amazing feeling to do it. Since I never made it to the track, I would have to aspire to get up to novice level at it. When I got my old miata, I was surprised at how much it reacted to the throttle in corners. The boxster does it too, but I haven't played with it nearly as much (it's rarely safe enough to probe/play where I drive).

[Mahler9th]

"Why do analog "anti-nanny" car guys think modern cars drive themselves on the track?"

I think the answers are that some seem to think so, and in any case.... social media.

I have been driving and instructing on track since 1987/1988, and racing as well. This topic has come up all during this time. When folks are focused on learning the basics, all performance enhancements, including these modern "nannies" as some call them are put in the proper perspective.

I was at Flying Lizards Motorsports back when they got their factory cars from Porsche pre-2014 Sebring. They were taking them apart. Brand new cars. The amount of technology in those cars (six years ago) was crazy. How many computers and wires?

No one would say that Jvo or Jorg were not driving those cars.

Anyway, if folks focus on the basics, then everything else fades into the background.

I remember the 1963 little red wagon my parent bought for my brothers and I. I have a contact who is a pro racing driver-- Thomas Merrill. His parents... long term PCA members. Thomas practically grew up at Laguna Seca, and was for a time CDO for Barber there.

I have said that he can lap Laguna in a little red wagon likely faster than others. Knowledge of the basics and the track.

Not every one cares about the basics. So be it.

[GH85Carrera]

Yea, I certainly did not mean the car was going to drive the track by itself, but with another 10 or 20 years of tech, they might well. I saw some article years back where an F1 engineer built and computer simulation of a ultimate go fast car. All the stability control, active aero, ground effects and every computer aid available. He figured the car would be so fast that the G-forces would be beyond human tolerance. The current F1 cars are pulling 5G in corners with no stability control and Hulkenberg struggled with his neck muscles, back and arms after being away from F1 for a short time.

To take a 40 MPH corner at 39.99 MPH and stay on course in control for the next corner is a ton of fun.

[aschen]

Tire pressure monitoring is a bit different than Active yaw control, electronic diffs, active aero, electronic dampers, stability systems that can individually brake each wheel etc......

Not to mention dual clutch which is a completely automated transmission.

These things help, even pro driver's say they do in most related interviews I have seen.

[Bill Verburg]

It's not the nannies per se that is at issue, its the fact the people trying to learn w/ them aren't really learning much because the nannies are saving their ass all the time.

On track you see the behavior of the cars in your line of sight, the modern cars can be observed to be doing all sorts of wild things because the drivers are in over their heads and the cars are saving them. Sometimes the driver pick up on this but more often not.

The E in DE is Education, w/ nannies there is little of that going on.

Once you have learned basic car control and track etiquette and are going faster w/o the intervention of the electronics then they are a valuable addition to your arsenal. But w/o that basic skill set it's sort of ridiculous and dangerous to be going that fast and need the electronics

[sugarwood]

Yes, I've driven an air cooled 911 at both autocross and track DE.
I never felt lack of power steering was any big deal.
U-turns in a tight space, now that is another story.

[sugarwood]

I agree that PDK and auto downshifting, and auto rev matching
are a huge advantage and greatly simplifies driving.
But that is not want the quote was referring to.