Help Identifying 2 different ammo cartridges

[Por_sha911]

Found these at the range recently. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The first is 9 mm and marked Win (Winchester) but I can't find any info online that would indicate what kind of bullet it is.


The next one has be totally baffled.

[Por_sha911]

Well it helps if I post the pics

[flatbutt]

The first has the look of a polymer coated bullet but we need Mr. Higgins.

[Jeff Higgins]

Polymer coated bullets are getting pretty common these days. It's a pretty cheap and effective way to apply a "jacket" of sorts. Some companies supply loaded ammo with them, some sell them as component bullets for reloading. There are even kits to apply it yourself, at home in your spare time, to your own cast bullets.

It looks like the bottle necked case is either a 7.63 x 25 Mauser, as used in the old Broomhandle and other pistols, or the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, which was the Eastern Bloc military pistol caliber through most of the Cold War. I think they are pretty much interchangeable, but don't quote me on that.

[Por_sha911]

Thanks for the info. The polymer coated bullet threw me off because I couldn't find anything Winchester made that looked like that. It makes sense that there are bullets sold for reloading that are polymer. This is prolly a reload.

The second looked like an old cartridge and like nothing I had seen. I'd like to know more about what pistol shoots this round.

[varmint]

The proportions seem off for 7.63X25 Mauser.

Maybe it’s just the angle of the picture.

[Arizona_928]

I'll go with the 7.62x25... Very common to split the case with them...

Polymer coated bullets can be bought through the bulk warehouses now...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by varmint

The proportions seem off for 7.63X25 Mauser.

Maybe it’s just the angle of the picture.

I believe these old bottle necked auto pistol cartridges still headspace on the case mouth, just like straight cased auto pistol rounds. Bottle necked rifle cartridges typically headspace on the shoulder, except for "magnum" cartridges that headspace on the belt.

As a result of this, bottlenecked rifle cartridges usually look substantially the same after firing, with the upper and lower edges of the shoulder maybe looking a little sharper and better defined as the pressure of firing forces the rounded corners into the sharply machined chamber profile. That shoulder cannot move, however - the shoulder on the unfired case has to make contact with the shoulder in the chamber to control headspace.

Bottlenecked pistol cartridges, however, do not have that requirement if they headspace on the mouth. As a matter of fact, manufacturers will often place the shoulder in the chamber quite a bit further forward than it is on the case, providing a good deal of clearance to ensure easy chambering. When fired, then, the shoulder on the case is moved forward to fill that area in the chamber, thereby shortening the neck on the case.

I used to put up with that crap when I was loading and shooting .38-40 and .44-40 Winchester in Colt single actions. These are both bottlenecked rifle rounds, meant for the Winchester 1873 lever action. Colt chambered them in the single action, so guys far away from ammo resupply could feed both rifle and revolver the same ammo. These headspace on the rim, just like any other rimmed cartridge. The "bottleneck" is very indistinct on new, unfired brass. It gets very distinct after firing, and moves forward a noticeable amount.

Here is a great picture that I found that illustrates this. Unfired .38-40 on the left, fired on the right:



I think that might be what we are seeing here with this auto pistol case.

[Por_sha911]

Wow awesome info. Thanks

[fanaudical]

Thanks, guys, for consistently posting stuff like this. I always learn something here.

[tabs]

Circle 21..is Russian Tokarev..

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Polymer coated bullets are getting pretty common these days. It's a pretty cheap and effective way to apply a "jacket" of sorts. Some companies supply loaded ammo with them, some sell them as component bullets for reloading. There are even kits to apply it yourself, at home in your spare time, to your own cast bullets.

It looks like the bottle necked case is either a 7.63 x 25 Mauser, as used in the old Broomhandle and other pistols, or the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, which was the Eastern Bloc military pistol caliber through most of the Cold War. I think they are pretty much interchangeable, but don't quote me on that.

The Tok runs too hot for the Mouser.