Harley Davidson really struggling

[flatbutt]

With YTY sales down so much HD really needs big changes. Without getting into the usual HD bashing that I abhor what ideas do you guys think would help?

I don't see that the basic power plant needs to change, heck low rpm high torque makes for a nice power source. Can HD produce a good sport bike or sport tourer? The cruiser is a great way to see the countryside but clearly they can't sell enough of them. I'd be very sad if HD went away.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/motorcycles/harley-davidson-is-sad-and-getting-sadder/ar-BBIu0LZ?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

[pwd72s]

Maybe another movie or TV show would help...

[JavaBrewer]

Is HD the only MC manufacturer seeing reduction in sales? Curious to know how the industry is performing compared to previous years.

That said I just don't see a viable market for an electric HD. What about the 'loud and proud' crowd?

[legion]

The problem is that their prime customers are aging out and there is no one to replace them.

They need to sell something that brings in younger customers. Perhaps some form of efficient/inexpensive city transportation?

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by legion

The problem is that their prime customers are aging out and there is no one to replace them.

They need to sell something that brings in younger customers. Perhaps some form of efficient/inexpensive city transportation?

Spot on

[Shaun @ Tru6]

They should hire whoever reinvented Cadillac. Same story.

[javadog]

I think the motorcycle industry is dying slowly, world wide. The one exception might be SE Asia, for small, basic transportation.

Fewer kids are riding, they'd rather play with a smart phone. Most of the RUB's have a Harley and they don't ride them enough to wear them out.

I don't think Harley will ever be able to sell a sport bike, or sport tourer. If I were to make suggestions to them, I'd have them focus on the weight and the agricultural level of the components and controls. I think that some styling changes would help. It would be nice is not all Harleys looked alike to the newbies.

Making them more reliable and making service a less wallet-draining experience would help.

JR

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by JavaBrewer

Is HD the only MC manufacturer seeing reduction in sales? Curious to know how the industry is performing compared to previous years.

That said I just don't see a viable market for an electric HD. What about the 'loud and proud' crowd?

Mostly flat since the recession.

Sales have been decimated compared to peak

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183549/us-sales-of-motorcycles-since-1990/

[Norm K]

They've been marketing to an aging demographic for many years and their failure to see this coming falls squarely at the feel of upper management. The changing face of the motorcycle-buying public generally doesn't view HD in the same positive light as have their buyers over the last 25 or so years. Hubris, company management apparently doesn't understand, is not a reliable recipe for sustainability. Now the company is facing a new reality and it will either change - by embracing and adjusting to this new reality - or it will struggle to the point of being sold to and operated by someone like, say, AMF.

_

[Tervuren]

With how many times people attempt to run me over when I am in the 944, there is no way I'm getting a road bike.

People have gone the route of heavy tall vehicles to be "safe" rather than honing driving ability through attention.

It is all too easy for a young person wanting a motorcycle to have any one they know tell them all of the people they knew who died on one.

[Yorkie]

Its industry wide rather than HD's fault. All of the manufacturers are trying to grab market share from an ever shrinking pie. I work with an adventure motorcycle accessory company and they weathered the great recession well as their customers were wealthy and insulated but they are aging out and the industry is shrinking. All those guys who bought HD's using home equity loans back in the 2000s are not going to get back on a HD.

The research I see through SEMA and the Outdoor Retail industry shows that younger people are finding their freedom kick through Overlanding type 4x4 trips. Fix up a 4Runner and take the spouse on a weekend in the woods or the high desert.

[wayner]

I think the days of Harley being in the same class as Honda are gone.

I think instead they are now moving to a low volume class like Royal enfield.

(I not talking about quality but rather nice market versus mainstream.)

I think the problem that Harley faces in that niche market is that young guys would think a triumph or even a royal enfield to be cool and hip, while the harley is dads bike. The sportster has a lot of potential, and I really like the fat tired 88, but if you could have any bike would the young crowd pick Harley over triumph? I even think Ducati has ruined themselves for this market.

As a high volume bike, racier looking things with higher perceived reliability seem to have the market.

I commented this summer how I thought the BMW GS adventure bikes are my generations Harley, as I see more and more big groups of riders.

So yea, the cadillac comment is a good one. The first time I saw one at the race track, but more importantly a CTSV on a twisty road commercial Na-na-Na-na-Nana- I got interested

I think the easy rider phase has passed.
Their best hope is Roland Sands :-)

[Jeff Higgins]

Folks have been gleefully predicting the demise of The Motor Company for as long as I have been riding. Any downturn in sales or profits is breathlessly hailed as "the end".

H-D has proven, if nothing else, to be exceedingly resilient. They were the lone survivor of the collapse of the entire American motorcycle industry in the '50's. They weathered the Japanese invasion of the '60's and '70's that saw the demise of most of the English motorcycle industry, and a good part of the European as well. They have weathered several downturns since then as well.

What is notably missing in the cited article is the health of the industry as a whole. A few of you guessed it - the entire industry is taking it in the shorts right now. Recreational riding, for whatever reason, just does not seem to appeal to the current generation like it did to mine. Commuting, in much of today's urban traffic, is almost some kind of a death wish what with distracted, hurried drivers running over bikes at an unprecedented rate. And we can now buy a car that gets every bit the gas mileage of a big motorcycle, for less money and lower insurance, removing those incentives from the equation.

Look for some of the lessor brands to go under and some of the low market share brands to consolidate. The market is getting smaller, and will get much, much smaller from here. Hell, I remember when H-D was doing well to sell 30,000 bikes a year - worldwide. I well remember the high-fives and congratulatory back-slapping when production hit 100,000 units per year. They since went on to exceed a quarter million units per year, which most of us thought was completely unsustainable. And it was. Even if they drop back under 100,000 units per year, they will still be bigger than they were as little as 20 years ago. I think that is a more accurate reflection of the real demand.

As far as the reliability issues and the die-off of the "boomers", both of those shop-worn "analysis" have long since been non-issues. There simply are no more reliable machines made today, by anybody, two or four wheels. Maintenance? There hardly is any; read any motorcycle long-term review, and they all tout the relative lack of any maintenance on these bikes. My own experience reflects that as well.

And how about those "boomers" that supposedly make up the lion's share of H-D sales? Another myth promulgated by the uninformed who hope to appear as though they know what they are talking about. I go to a lot of bike events, I mean a lot of bike events. I have never seen the younger generation so well represented on their Harley-Davidsons. They still very much represent what young riders aspire to, outside of the sportbike crowd.

You want to talk about a dying segment of the motorcycle industry - take a look at sportbikes. I remember just a few years ago Suzuki even stopped importing their GSXR line into the United States altogether. Not a one... Not a single 600 or 1,000cc sportbike. Nadda. Couldn't sell 'em.

Other makes were not doing much better. Now Audi is looking at selling off Ducati, but they are finding no suitors. Now that would be a shame, but a much more realistic scenario, if Ducati went under. Talk about priced well above the rest of the market, and being almost totally dependent upon affluent riders while really only appealing to younger riders. Expensive, frequent maintenance? Can anyone say "desmodronic valvetrain"? H-D isn't in nearly as dire straights, yet they are the goliath of the industry, and every hack with a typewriter would love to be the first to nail their demise. Ain't happening. Not by a long shot.

[wayner]

"perceived" reliability

[javadog]

Wanna buy a Fat Boy? Trying to get rid of one, for the estate of a friend...

I choose not to own a Harley but I have friends that do. They get soaked by the local dealer for $300 oil change services. One of them just spent north of $2k to fix a clutch problem caused by a nut that was improperly tightened when it was built. Took the better part of a month to get fixed, no help from Harley on the cost, and the dealer did the repair without getting his permission first. That's the kind of crap they ought to fix. When I was in the car business, it was the service experience that brought people back to buy another.

Granted, Harleys are far better than they were in days past but I don't think they ever achieved Japanese levels of reliability and low service costs. I've personally owned something like 35 or 40 bikes and the only failure I've ever had was a single taillight bulb. Some of the service costs can be blamed on the dealers, as they probably make most of their money from service and ancillary sales of clothing and accessories.

As for the Suzuki story... after the downturn in the overall market that occurred after the last economic crash, most US dealers had way too much inventory. Rather than burden their dealers with more, Suzuki elected to not import most of their street product line in 2010, not just the GSX-R models. The market is better now than it was then but I don't think it will ever fully recover.

[sammyg2]

That design has been good for over 100 years, why change it?

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by legion

The problem is that their prime customers are aging out and there is no one to replace them.

They need to sell something that brings in younger customers. Perhaps some form of efficient/inexpensive city transportation?

https://interestingengineering.com/harley-davidson-will-release-an-electric-motorcycle-next-year


I also think they should try something extremely retro (seems to be the fad right now) like a remake of a 1940's-1920's bike.

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by javadog

I've personally owned something like 35 or 40 bikes and the only failure I've ever had was a single taillight bulb. .

^have to ask the obvious question: were these 35-40 bikes actually ridden any substantial mileage or owned by you long-term?

[javadog]

Yes. I owned some of them for 25-30 years and I rode a lot in my life. On pavements and off, including some racing. First started to ride in around '73, or '74.

Some of my bikes attained collectible status and got parked. One, a 2005 limited Edition GSX-R was never ridden, as it was bought to round off a collection of limited production sport bikes. It eventually made it to my oldest son's home office. I've recently sold off the bulk of my collection. I have one racebike restoration project percolating along slowly, I have a couple dirt bikes waiting on me to go through them and refresh them and I may build another hot rod of some sort. Other than that, my bike career is winding down.

JR

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Norm K

They've been marketing to an aging demographic for many years and their failure to see this coming falls squarely at the feel of upper management. The changing face of the motorcycle-buying public generally doesn't view HD in the same positive light as have their buyers over the last 25 or so years. Hubris, company management apparently doesn't understand, is not a reliable recipe for sustainability. Now the company is facing a new reality and it will either change - by embracing and adjusting to this new reality - or it will struggle to the point of being sold to and operated by someone like, say, AMF.

_

Yup, seems like the same market as a 1960s muscle car. A demographic that will be largely gone in 20 years.