Power backup for house, need the Borg's opinion

[Arizona_928]

Different type of battery

[red-beard]

On Generators - That cost is WAY too high. A 20kW install should be around $8-10K with everything. The 20kW Generator retails for around $4500-$5000K with a transfer switch. The Electrical install should be about $1-2K. Generator install is SIMPLE. The "hard" part is the gas line, since it usually requires piping and trenching. And either a propane tank or a new gas meter. Most house meters are too small for a generator.

My Generator supplier is about 18-20 weeks right now, when normally everything is in stock. @$20K, someone is charging "ammo" tax right now.

Solar.

We do not sell Tesla Equipment. I get asked about it all the time. It is SO limited in output and battery capacity. And expensive. And loud. Loud? The type of batteries require water cooling to be safe. And you cannot implement a backup generator with TESLA and have solar/battery participate. Not designed for it.

My preferred multi-level solution (which we designed and sell) is a Hybrid Energy system. You combine Solar and Battery and an inverter with backup generator.

Solar has 2 functions: 1) It saves you money all year long. 2) It provides the general power you need when the utility is not there.

Battery/Inverter: It is immediate backup power. Our systems switch in about 1/60th of a second. So you don't really lose power. The batteries also absorb excess solar energy when "off-grid".

Generator: It is the power source and grid and solar fail. Yes, solar fails. It fails when it is cloudy and it fails when you use up all of your stored energy. The purpose is to supply power to the house AND recharge the batteries.

How to implement:

If you have a utility connection:

The utility it is your primary source of power. Your solar reduces your demand and you SELL your excess solar. Batteries are used as backup when the utility fails; Solar keeps the batteries full during the day and provides most of the power. The Generator supplements on cloudy days and on high usage days. Since the batteries are not regularly cycled, cheaper good quality AGM batteries are used.

Off-Grid

Solar and Battery is your PRIMARY power. Generator again is to supplement for the cloudy and high usage days. Batteries cycle everyday, so high quality, high cycle batteries (LiFePo4) are recommended.

Low Money: Small Solar/Small Battery/Big Generator

You setup the essential things on the battery/backup so they never fail. Larger higher power items may only be run when the generators runs. This kind of setup can be for both on-grid and off-grid. And you can implement a system for about 1/2 the cost of a full system.

I expect the generator availability, like ammo, will improve in the spring.

[red-beard]

As far as implementing a "small portable generator" on a house

1) Get a 240VAC Generator
2) Get a manual Transfer switch
3) Setup a sub-panel for your essential items

Champion makes a Good quality Generator in the 7-8kW price range.

[wdfifteen]

I would go with the whole house generator. It will add value to your house and its proven technology. It won't be obsolete in 10 years unless they do something incredible with battery backups. The installation price you have to pay is insane. I would go with the generator and try to find wiggle room on the install price.

[red-beard]

For a small generator (up to 20kW) and using a sub-panel, I like this one, available from Home Despot

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-100-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Emergency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10323R/100171587

You come out of your main electrical box on a 100 AMP breaker, go to the transfer switch. You go from the middle on the TS to your subpanel. Put your most needed 120 and 240 items in the sub-panel.

Generator connects to third terminal. I would connect the generator side to an outlet and have a connector cable to the portable generator.

Here is a good model

https://amazon.com/Champion-100110-9200W-11500W-Generator/dp/B01HDYW210/

or if you have a BIG propane tank

https://amazon.com/Champion-8000-Watt-Portable-Generator-Electric/dp/B01FAWMMPS/

Not cheap, BUT they include an oil pump and spin on filter for extended runs

https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/portable-generators/xg-series/xg10000e

[302340]

Generac also has their relatively new PWRCell product. It's a modular battery system, from 3 to 6 batteries, which helps with cost.

https://www.generac.com/all-products/clean-energy/pwrcell


Lee

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by 302340

Generac also has their relatively new PWRCell product. It's a modular battery system, from 3 to 6 batteries, which helps with cost.

https://www.generac.com/all-products/clean-energy/pwrcell


Lee

Inverter $3125 (7.6kW)
Battery Holder $2600
Each Battery $1810 (only 3.6kWh, 2.88 usable)
Transfer Switch $688

Plus installation

[302340]

Have you worked with a PWRCell, red-beard? I truly would like to know your opinion. ...

Lee

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by red-beard

As far as implementing a "small portable generator" on a house

1) Get a 240VAC Generator
2) Get a manual Transfer switch
3) Setup a sub-panel for your essential items

Champion makes a Good quality Generator in the 7-8kW price range.

Thank you Red beard for this and the above. I'd like to follow your "full house hybrid" recommendation, but that is a thread I'll revisit on a future house. This is just for now on a lower budget as a response to more and more outages. I cannot do much about the overcharging on the full house gen - the price they quote is the price most quote here ...

I'm doing basically *exactly* what you said above. Except in terms of availability, the choice was the champion unit (gasoline only) or another brand equally recommended (Irving?) for $200 more but tri fuel, and I would rather use propane - more power and it doesn't go bad like gasoline, and also is good for my BBQ ;-) 240V 30W + cable... Once installed, including generator, cable, panel repair (other issue not up to code), transfer switch, <$4000. More palatable. I will build a platform for the genny and eventually buy a silencer box to put around it.

[Evans, Marv]

That Generac XG10000E is what I have but an older model I bought maybe twelve or thirteen years ago. I removed the wheels and made a pad for it on the side of my garage with a cover. I have a small battery tender on it & Sta-Bil Marine in the fuel when I leave fuel in it. It's been there for ten+ years and starts & performs flawlessy every time. It uses an 18 hp. Subaru engine & is loud just like other Generac generators.

[CalPersFatCat]

Originally Posted by 302340

Have you worked with a PWRCell, red-beard? I truly would like to know your opinion. ...

Lee

I am certified by Generac for PWRcell.

So far in 2020, I have bought $1.2m from Generac.

I have purchased exactly $0.00 of PWRcell product.

In my opinion, it is a product for wealthy green loving people who don't need air conditioning during a utility outage.

Next year, we will do $7m to $8m in sales and installation. 100% Generac Product.

If you have NG at your house: 22kw/200amp Xfer switch, one (1) smart management module, and complete installation would run just under $11,000, assuming that the generator can be placed within 20 feet of the electrical panel and within 20' of the gas meter. This assumes that you are willing to wait 16 to 20 weeks for installation.

The Gen and Xfer switch should be just under $5k. The installation will be between $6k and $7k. We get another $550 for permitting.

DL

[CalPersFatCat]

[QUOTE=red-beard;11136180]On Generators - That cost is WAY too high. A 20kW install should be around $8-10K with everything. The 20kW Generator retails for around $4500-$5000K with a transfer switch. The Electrical install should be about $1-2K. Generator install is SIMPLE. The "hard" part is the gas line, since it usually requires piping and trenching. And either a propane tank or a new gas meter. Most house meters are too small for a generator.

Do you do residential home standby power or strictly commercial?

Do you know Wes and Matt ? They are pretty good at residential home standby power in Houston Metro...

DL

[red-beard]

We manufacture hybrid solar energy systems which include solar, batteries, inverter and a generator. We contract with solar installers and electricians to install.

[302340]

Thank you very much for the information, DL! What are your thoughts on the Generac generator products? Does your company do residential installations or commercial too?

Lee

[CalPersFatCat]

Originally Posted by red-beard

We manufacture hybrid solar energy systems which include solar, batteries, inverter and a generator. We contract with solar installers and electricians to install.

Wow. I can't imagine not having electricians and installers inhouse. The scheduling alone would be a nonstarter for us...

We use three different local gas companies for NG hookups and only one company for tank burial and initial fill. But that is the only part of the operation that we do not control 100%.

But that will soon end. We recently bought a Vermeer CTX160 to put 38kw generators (1,800 lbs) up on 6' tig welded steel stands (that we have to locally manufacture) and a "No Ramp Trailer" to move it on. We can trench with it and, obviously dig with it. We hope to bring all gas inside this coming Fall.

I don't know how you do it. We interview these gas plumbers and they all insist that they want to partner with us. Then after vetting them, checking licensing and insurance, we send over an order for 4 or 5 jobs for the next week (we pull the gas permits for them) and they quickly decide that they can't help us and they aren't willing to add a truck and crew to help us with our jobs...

DL

[CalPersFatCat]

Originally Posted by 302340

Thank you very much for the information, DL! What are your thoughts on the Generac generator products? Does your company do residential installations or commercial too?

Lee

Residential only. (thats kind of a lie...it just depends)

Take a look at Generac stock performance over the last 5 years.

Generac is a ruthless, cut throat company that is very very good at what they do. They are very good at business. We are prohibited from using any other generator supplier as a condition of our agreement.

Others had mentioned a portable as an alternative. If I was going to go with a manual transfer switch to my panel, I would buy a Generac XD5000E. It is a diesel and is strong enough to run a MODERN 2.5 ton central air unit when paired with a soft start module. This is what we do for people when they have zero side lot setbacks, no natural gas at the house and the entire front yard is driveway (impossible to put a 500 gallon propane tank in the ground). The generator is $3,700.00. Lowes or HD can special order one for you. We seldom go this route. Our demographic is looking for automatic whole home standby power and they want turnkey installation, annual maintenance and 24/7 monitoring via Generac Fleet cellular.

DL

[Deschodt]

Just for closure, for someone on a budget ($3900 in the end) I'm reasonably happy with the outcome... my entire main floor is powered (fridge, microwave, lights, TV, PCs, wifi, 2 BR, garage, outside...) I got a trifuel 7500w generator that goes into the new panel, and there I can pick and choose my circuits out of the 10, or turn them all on one after another, and reverse the operation when power returns. There's power level meters on each bank of 5 it seems. It's all manual... Tested OK, it works. The generator itself is not Honda quiet but 1/3 of the price I wasn't gonna pay $4500 for a Honda 7000i that gets used 3x a year. Loud is fine for daytime operation, I will build a wood cage around it to drop the noise a little but not so tight to cause heating issues.. Starting on propane is way trickier than on gas, you must use the choke first a few seconds, then stop, then start again but immediately turn off the choke... I Guess I will use this on propane for small durations and go gas for longer planned outages, let the gas run out and switch back to propane...

Wish I could have done a full house gen but in my city, with code issues (proximity to windows and neighbor) and closeness of neighbors, the trenching alone to connect it and supply with with natural gas would have been cost prohibitive.

[Deschodt]

Right 2 are main panel (too full) and subpanel... left of that the splice box. Then leftmost is the new panel with my 10 gen circuits (line/off/gen positions), the gen plugs under that with a big 50 amp twist and lock plug.

[flatbutt]

Rather than a new thread I'll tack onto this one. I've been storing the Honda gennie in my basement and dragging it out when needed. Time now to make it easier on myself.

I see all manner of outdoor enclosures for gennies but dang they're expensive. Sure $400 to protect a $3000 gennie isn't much but day-umm.

Have any of you built your own? Are there any climate issues I need to concern myself with other than keeping it dry?

TIA

[Deschodt]

+1 on the above, althoughmore concerned about noise abatement than protection. What have you guys built, if anything ? what works ? PG&E line set a backyard on fire near my house last week, it's gonna be a fun summer.

PS: for giggles, the transfer panel in the above pic was defective. The first time I needed this, it kept tripping the generator. They came back and redid it all for free...
Now I think I got my money's worth but damn that generator is loud !