The curious case of the mask vs no mask

[Superman]

Originally Posted by island911

When respiratory viruses are shed via droplets, even more virus particles are shed in sub-droplet size.

I know your training and education and I think you will appreciate the following: Define the terms "droplet" and "sub-droplet." Sure, a loogey is going to get stuck on the mask and would not pass through. And sure, an individual dry virus will almost certainly pass through. But how many exhaled viruses are individual and dry? Another form of the question is this: What proportion of exhaled virus particles are wet and accompanied in a droplet of water by dozens of other viruses? Even if that droplet is too small to see without a microscope. And if this is the vehicle that viruses actually use, then the "viruses are too small to be captured by a mask" starts to break down.

And then there is the question of how many viruses does it take to create an active infection. One single virus would not make someone sick, surely. A hundred billion would. What about 100 viruses? 1000? 10? And how many viruses are in those droplets which are large enough to be captured in a mask?

CDC says masks help. Greg is a medical researcher whose skills at evaluating studies are greater than that of the CDC. CDC says masks help. Greg knows otherwise, using CDC's own study? CDC cannot evaluate their own studies? I am unable to out-think CDC, or perhaps even Greg. We don't know that masks are ineffective. In fact, masks almost certainly have some effectiveness. Not enough to bother with? Maybe. But health organizations continue to urge their use. There must be a lot of really stupid doctors out there.

[fintstone]

Unfortunately, the CDC has become an political entity as has the WHO. Both have totally reversed their position in the past year on this (and many other things). While it is possible that they have learned and changed their minds based on that, they have produced no evidence that is the case (as they typically would have). Until they do, I think I am comfortable with their evidence-based opinions prior to their politicization (which has resulted in massive salary increases and an exponentially larger budget). They learned well from the weather guys that became "climate change" experts.

[Lyle O]

Post hoc, ergo, propter hoc...(After this, therefore, because of this). We must be careful in drawing conclusions from various data and studies which are not causally proven. In the above examples, is it correct to say masks caused more infections? No. Is it correct to say more infections occurred while masks were being used? Yes. Does it mean masks are not effective? We don't know, because there has been no causal link proven (while it is possible, other factors have not been eliminated). This is the problem with most of the discussion and policy around the topic: a little data are being stretched WAY out there, depending on what spin (or conclusion) is desired. Unfortunately, I doubt we will see legitimate data and conclusions for a while. So much for "following the science". In the meantime, we are on our own as to coming to our own conclusions. My $0.02...

[gregpark]

Originally Posted by Superman

I

CDC says masks help. Greg is a medical researcher whose skills at evaluating studies are greater than that of the CDC. CDC says masks help. Greg knows otherwise, using CDC's own study? CDC cannot evaluate their own studies? I am unable to out-think CDC, or perhaps even Greg. We don't know that masks are ineffective. In fact, masks almost certainly have some effectiveness. Not enough to bother with? Maybe. But health organizations continue to urge their use. There must be a lot of really stupid doctors out there.

I don't know jack. I'm a just a dumb construction worker. I simply posted part of a study published by the CDC that seems to counter what they're saying now. I have a hard time trusting anything the government tells me anyway and this doesnt exactly instill more trust

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by gregpark

I don't know jack. I'm a just a dumb construction worker. I simply posted part of a study published by the CDC that seems to counter what they're saying now. I have a hard time trusting anything the government tells me anyway and this doesnt exactly instill more trust

In construction, do you ever change plans when it becomes clear something changed that might effect the build?

[Rikao4]

I'm sure does..
but these charlatans...
wave numbers of death and lack available ICU beds..
back and fort..
inserting news of a new strain every few days..
all while lying about what supposedly works and not..

Yoda's latest suggestion..
wear 2...
can't wait to hear about his plastic bag idea..

Rika

[gregpark]

Originally Posted by cabmando

In construction, do you ever change plans when it becomes clear something changed that might effect the build?

You mean the CDC did another study refuting the last? Didn't see that one

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

I'm sure does..
but these charlatans...
wave numbers of death and lack available ICU beds..
back and fort..
inserting news of a new strain every few days..
all while lying about what supposedly works and not..

Yoda's latest suggestion..
wear 2...
can't wait to hear about his plastic bag idea..

Rika

It's like wearing two rubbers with a "questionable" girl. Never can be too safe.

[island911]

Originally Posted by Lyle O

Post hoc, ergo, propter hoc...(After this, therefore, because of this). We must be careful in drawing conclusions from various data and studies which are not causally proven. In the above examples, is it correct to say masks caused more infections? No. Is it correct to say more infections occurred while masks were being used? Yes. Does it mean masks are not effective? We don't know, because there has been no causal link proven (while it is possible, other factors have not been eliminated). This is the problem with most of the discussion and policy around the topic: a little data are being stretched WAY out there, depending on what spin (or conclusion) is desired. Unfortunately, I doubt we will see legitimate data and conclusions for a while. So much for "following the science". In the meantime, we are on our own as to coming to our own conclusions. My $0.02...

Yep.

I keep saying, masks are nothing but a minimal safety layer (at best.) But if people believe that their safety equipment is better than it actually is, they will take risks beyond the protection, rather than behaving as if they had no protection at all.

Football helmets, for example... Carbon fibre, memory foam... and suddenly players are hitting each other even harder. G'head and make a helmet out of paper Mache and think it will take the same hit. It will, as it busts open. Some will even insist that it MUST be giving SOME protection... But the net result is head injury - because the wearer believed it provides more protection than it actually could.

And here we have example after example of covid coming on strong where there is high mask compliance. People haven't a clue about the efficacy of their gaiter, their leopard print China mask... but they are told that if they wear this unrated POS that they are "safe." ...but should still be afraid. Home Depot? - OK. Church? - no way that can be safe. Rioting? - OK Wedding? - No way!

[fintstone]

Funny how so much of what was proclaimed over the past year has changed in the last week:

"The American Journal of Medicine now (Jan. 2021) now recommends Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin, and Zinc for the treatment of Covid 19 outpatients..."

Read the rest:
https://principia-scientific.com/the-american-journal-of-medicine-now-recommends-hcq-for-covid19/

[cabmandone]

That analysis seems pretty old.
"One could argue the results of definitive trials were needed at the outset of the pandemic, and certainly are needed now with more than 1 million cases and 500,000 deaths worldwide."

It is old... the article was published in August.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(20)30673-2/fulltext

also here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934320306732

[cabmandone]

Oops!
"Facial covering for all contacts within the home"

[island911]

what is more safe; hugging a CV shedder while (both) wearing face masks or staying 10' away w/o facemasks?

notice that we do not have definitive answers to such an easy question. We simply get "do both, all the time."

Anyone shedding this virus... a puny little leaky mask is next to nothing at all. Except it makes some feel safe. So they force mask compliance to everyone. But at least this has shown to make no difference. The virus still rages along.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by island911

what is more safe; hugging a CV shedder while (both) wearing face masks or staying 10' away w/o facemasks?

notice that we do not have definitive answers to such an easy question. We simply get "do both, all the time."

You are smarter than your posts would somethings suggest. . But then, I knew that already. Staying 10' away is preferable. Staying home, more preferable still. It seems that everything can be delivered. We placed a Costco order today, and you wouldn't believe how quickly it arrived. About as fast as if i had gone to Costco to get it. Costco is three miles away.

And sure, if masks make people forget other protocols, then that is unfortunate. What if everyone were smart and patriotic enough to practice all sensible measures?

[island911]

It would be a fun Costco experiment... Who loses their shlt faster; someone observing a non-mask wearer 20' away from anyone, or someone observing a mask wearer 2' away from a masked old lady.

My bet is on the non-mask wearer causing the Karen meltdown.

But which is safer?

[VillaRicaGA911]

So just to add to the conversation here, this is directly from me talking with a surgeon in the OR last week while doing a product evaluation at a large teaching hospital in a large city where we have no shortage of COVID cases right now. - Yes I work in healthcare as does my wife and we both worked in the healthcare field for years. - The main points of this conversation last week.
You notice we seem to have all but cured the flu, almost overnight? (Pay no attention to the fact hospitals get paid more insurance money and Medicare/Medicare money if it is a COVID patient...
And look to be clear I’m not saying COVID is not real or its all a sham.
The second point of this conversation - go look at the numbers on the WHO web site for reported cases in Africa (south of the N African/Mediterranean countries). Numbers are low, why? The world class healthcare system they have?? Then why cant the effectively stop an Ebola outbreak? Could it be most of that population takes a weekly dose of anti malaria medicine?
Just questions to ponder...

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by island911

what is more safe; hugging a CV shedder while (both) wearing face masks or staying 10' away w/o facemasks?

notice that we do not have definitive answers to such an easy question. We simply get "do both, all the time."

Anyone shedding this virus... a puny little leaky mask is next to nothing at all. Except it makes some feel safe. So they force mask compliance to everyone. But at least this has shown to make no difference. The virus still rages along.

Man, if there was ever someone whose phono needle was stuck in the same groove....

[fintstone]

The facts just don't change...just because you want them to.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by gregpark

Of course masks are ineffective

The CDC study said so just a month ago
They change their minds? and apparently Fauci changed his mind at one point too

I've seen that photo before and there has never been a bigger crock of BS. He is supposed to be breathing out copius amounts of smoke but his mask is in a sucked in mode.

People are so fkcing vulnerable to absolute nonsense. I don't go out because I'm afraid of unanimous ignorance and stupidity.

That has to be a dept store dummy with a pipe through the back of his head hooked up to a Hollywood smoke machine. Anyone who would even post this ought to sent to somewhere like the South Pole where they can count penguins.

And if you don't believe me, then tell me how a real person could have that much smoke to exhale and still be standing.

Cue the next propaganda meme.

[island911]

yer so smrat...