The road where Tiger crashed is defective! (my opinion - you be the judge)...
 

So, Tiger crashed his car a mile or so from my house. I know this road pretty well, driven it in the tank quite a few times when the brakes were suspect (there's a runaway ramp on the road - actually, I believe two!). So, Tiger was driving a loaner vehicle, supposedly, a Hyundai Genesis SUV, so a car he was unfamiliar with. It was early in the morning, maybe he was sleepy. Also, this is a big downhill sloping curve, so maybe he was going too fast.

BUT - I contend (in my opinion) that the design of the road is defective!

Here are some photos from Google Earth.

Here is the first photo showing the gentle bend that is at this part of the road:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614228241.JPG


As we get a little closer, we see that the road has a median that gets narrower for no apparent reason. As far as I know, this is not a spot where anyone would make a u-turn, nor are these dividers setup or properly designed to facilitate a u-turn. Perhaps these are leftover from years ago where this road was purposed for something else? Just look at how the road edge narrows, and sends a visual cue to your brain to follow along. Tiger visually followed the edge of the road here and presumably slammed into the median directly in front of him.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614228241.JPG


Here's a view looking back at the median. You'd see this as you drove by if you were sitting in the back seat on the left side of the car and looked back towards the rear of the car. See how the median narrows down to nothing. Bad, bad visual cues.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614228241.JPG


Here's the Google Earth view from above. As you can see, the road narrows, and it looks like this area would be / could be used for a u-turn. What a dangerous proposition that would be, as nearly everyone would be creamed by the cars coming the other way.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614228241.JPG


There's even a runaway truck ramp sign right near this median - no way this should be used as u-turn area. It's not even properly designed for that.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614229214.JPG


Here's a clip from the helicopter shot showing where Tiger's car landed on the hillside. You can see the remains of the white "Welcome to Rolling Hills Estates" sign on the road and the median. The sign is not in the Google Street View photos - I believe it was relatively new.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614228637.JPG

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7855206,-118.3658027,3a,75y,76.02h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sO2dPiDfTUoPSYXYZRm_yvQ!2e0!5s2 0150301T000000!7i13312!8i6656


Now I'm not a fan of golf really at all, and I hope that Tiger makes a full recovery. But it makes me angry when I see things that are poorly designed and lead the eye / brain in directions that it shouldn't be going. When I was at MIT our incoming class had to read the following book:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614229518.JPG
https://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Revised-Expanded/dp/0465050654

This book taught us to be intelligent designers and to make sure that we took responsibility not to incorporate ridiculous or faulty elements in our design. This seems like a clear example of that! *grrrr*

-Wayne

In this first photo above, if one is in the left lane (don't know if Woods was but it seems you are assuming that at this point), you really can't even see the way the median narrows up.

You talk about the visual cue, but a smart driver should be focused on the visual cue of the far side of the break in the median where it is more than obvious where you need to keep your vehicle.

You can see the narrowing in the second photo, but by this time your attention should not be focused on anything but the left lane ahead. Only a little old grandma going 20 MPH and looking at the road 30 feet in front of her car would be confused by the narrowing of the median.

BTW, I would guess that the narrowing is designed to handle a situation that would occur during a heavy downpour. By narrowing, it would lead rainwater away from the edge of the road surface and along the curb and into that storm drain.

The narrowing of the median on the oncoming lane (in combination with the downhill lane) could be to allow police or emergency vehicles to pull into that area more easily to park without blocking traffic. If that manhole next to the storm drain needs to be accessed from time to time, a water works truck could be there without blocking traffic also.

Can we get Vash on this? :D

Maybe the visual cue of connecting the painted yellow lines from one section of the median to the other would help... a little less wiggly of course. ;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614235016.jpg

The area between the two lines could even be crosshatched.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614235227.jpg

It is a weird feature, maybe with emergency vehicles in mind? At 45 mph or close to that this should not be tough to maneuver for anyone but I also agree that some paint would go a long way.

I do wonder if this car was full of nannies such as lane assist? It certainly is quiet and luxurious and may mask how fast you are really going.

Someone that wealthy with a tough schedule should really have a driver. Can relax / nap and make it there safely. If interested in driving for fun, do it as a separate activity.

I see what you mean, possibly deceiving. And the median has been like that for years? have there been prior accidents similar to Tiger's at this same exact location?

So, Wayne, are you saying that that gap in the road caused the Tiger to think the road was going straight at that point? Do you think he veered to the left on purpose?

I’ve heard that stretch of road described as fairly steep, which seems reasonable given the the perspective of the fencing on the sides. Pictures don’t do that justice, how steep is it really?

I expect that is a left over not from a U-turn, but for when it was a smaller road or from construction. That cut would allow closure of the road and redirection of traffic to make it a two-way road on one-side.

Cross hatching or installation of a barrier would be appropriate.

Unless people crash there every week, or at least regularly, I would consider the less than optimal design of the road, irrelevant.
If it really was a design error that leads to misjudging the curve, more accidents or near misses would occur and the situation would become known.
Is that bend known as a risky place?

Driver error IMO.

also this:

Or at the very least, there should have been lines on both sides that continued straight to meet the next median.

CNN news (Robin Meade!) that there have been 13 accidents at this section of the road since a year ago January. Maybe you are onto something. I still think it was the right foot pedal that caused Tiger's accident though.

I agree with the above comments. Driving alert and at or near a reasonable speed, no problem. Late for your meeting with Drew Brees and probably on the phone, yeah, I can see that.
But it could have been a cyclist he killed while distracted, so while I feel for the guy, he doesn't get a pass.

How many thousands of cars drive that road every single hour with no issue whatsoever.

OK, even if it is a tricky road, how many cars and trucks drive that road in a year? One crash per month but with two lanes in each direction, it must me a lot of traffic on the road.

One crash per month is a lot, maybe they need to lower the speed limit. What is the speed limit there now?

Bottom line, any driver that can't keep the car in the lane needs to hand in their driver's license for a while and take some driving training.

Would Roman Grosean have crashed there?

I’m calling gravel on the road from poor county maintenance- the issue

No offense to any civil engineers here, but the standard joke in engineering school was civil engineers were mechanical engineering majors that couldn't get past thermo or heat transfer. Between that and engineers passing exams on partial credit scores, there are some not so bright road designers out there.

A couple of observations from the cheap seats here in the OC.

Note the skid marks in the photos that Wayne posted. Looks like some trailer truck's ABS was braking and causing it to skid. This may give an indication of how fast it is in that section.
Also, I've seen video of a car 'resembling' the one Tiger was driving at about the time he was on the road, showing it being in the right hand lane.

I'm now going to bet that some of the driving 'nannies' in the car contributed to his crash, on top of his inattentiveness to his driving (have they looked at his phone records yet?).

I'd actually expect high traffic in some ways to mostly mitigate the issues that Wayne brought up. If you've got 100 cars nose to tail, as long as most of them are paying attention, the others will probably mostly just follow those that are paying attention.

If there's a design issue with the road as Wayne mentioned, and if a tired, inattentive driver is on the road with no other traffic in a situation with low visibility (dark, heavy rain, etc...) then in that situation, that solitary driver is more likely to get caught off guard by the design issue because they don't have other headlights, tail lights, etc... to cue from as an indication that they should veer left or stay right.

Looking at the first pic you posted the direction of the road looks pretty obvious, slow curve to the right. If someone veered left there what would they do at every intersection? Probably sending a text.

I have been driving since 1970. In all that time I have never once, driven off the road. On glazed wet ice in a ice storm I did slide sideways at 1/2 a mile per hour into the curb with the brakes on after I came to a stop. It was a challenge to get moving again. I still managed to drive home 12 miles with no crashes.

Tiger has had a couple of news worthy crashes. There is simply no excuse at all, none, for texting and driving or driving when tired or sleepy or inattentive. Pay attention to the road and hang up the damn phone and drive!

Millions of people crash everyday. Just like most airplane crashes are pilot error, it is even more so with car crashes. They are very few "accidents" most were just bad driving and just a wreck.

When I was 16 and in high school the style for the girls was a very short mini skirt. (Ah the good ol days.) Right in front of my school I was intently watching a particularly cute classmate in a very tight short skirt that for some reason mesmerized me. I rear ended a Buick Roadmaster with my 1960 VW bug. 100% my fault. I knocked off some dirt from the Buick, and crushed my VW front end. That is the only wreck I have ever had except for some fool in a parking lot that ran into me while I was stopped. In 50+ years no wrecks at all.

Anyone at all that drives off the road is simply driving too fast for conditions, and or is very inattentive. Celebrity or not, that is just a bad driver and inexcusable.

I have both driven and ridden my bike over that many times and don't see anything defected about it? I don't know too much about the accident, but it maybe that he was not paying attention and miss judged that curb?

Not without a warrant and I doubt they have probable cause to get one.
They could ask him for permission, but with all the drugs the doctors probably have him on, no way he is competent to consent.

This looks like a typical urban boulevard design. However, almost all highway design has constraints, often the ROW is narrow or not regular and the design follows. I notice how close the utility poles are to the right curb. Normally these are set back from the edge. It is odd that the left hand lane narrows while there appears to be plenty of room to the right side, maybe a striping error. The issue I see is the curb section on the median side. These are often used to define the edges or direct drainage. More modern design would have mountable curbs so a motorist wouldn't catch a wheel on the high curb and at speed this can be quite dangerous to a driver not paying attention. So if you wander over a bit and hit the curb where it transitions to a narrower lane you might not be able to save it, or overcorrect and really crash. That being said, I feel bad for the Tiger and hope he makes a speedy recovery. It looks like the SUV took a major hit (or hits) and he survived what not long ago would have been likely been not survivable.

They could use a reflector post thigey at the nose of the median, but from the distance between the impact with the median and the final position of the vehicle, I'd say he was doing way over 45 mph. So the city guys are safe. The issue is whether it's safe at the posted speed limit, not at "any" speed that you may choose.

I agree with Wayne in that that it probably doesn't follow any standardized format/layout for common road signage and markings.
Road engineering is highly specialized. They had one job to do. An unmarked turn-around to nowhere? wtf.
And a hundred other eyeballs saw the same thing.
That open space, or whatever that thing is, should have had lines and arrows at the minimum.
Self-driving cars and lane-assist would have done the exact same thing.

It's like an open manhole on the sidewalk. Or a launch off a bridge which is missing a lane. Claim the driver was going too fast or not paying attention but really an existing hazard was left behind by those trained and paid to do exactly that and responsible for the results. I imagine that in full rush hour traffic there have been many near misses in the past.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614277791.jpg

There's normally no one on that road but local res. going over the hump. Its fast, with slight curves going over the hill. People often speed there without noticing it. Like I said, I have not read or kept up with this. Judging from Wayne's photos, and knowing exactly where the section of the road is, I am a strong believer that he may have been speeding?

^ Yes. Let's say you take any residential street X.X times over the posted speed limit. It sort of negates the pointy finger claim that the road is to blame....

Do you speed up A) at night, B) in bad weather, C) in heavy traffic ?

Or do you do all three? Or none of the above? You have a steering wheel and brake pedal, just pointing that out.

They can and likely have downloaded the car computer information. It records the speed and brakes and steering angles. We will never get to hear about the info however. It will just be forgotten.

I deleted my post because it was just being argumentative and the topics had been covered already. ;) srry rus

But irregardless (yeah I said the word) of driver speed: the idea that the design is highly non-standardized, a little bizarre, in the wrong place, and an existing hazard still is somewhat valid I think.

Not sure what the posted speed is but, even if he was still should have been able to stay on the road. When younger I would look at posted speed for a turn double it and then do it in MPH, was always able to make the turn. With modern cars the posted speed is pretty safe. There is the possibility that there was an animal on the road that he avoided and just lost control. Pretty sure there is some pro race car drivers that would swap driving lessons for driving lessons with him.

Maybe he chipped when he should have putted?

I understand about the probable cause, but don't you think they have more than enough probable cause just based on the fact he crashed?
I would hope they do it based on that fact, especially if they're going to go spend tax payer money on a study of the road to find out if it's safe. It's probably one of the best maintained roads in southern California based on the demographics of where it's located. People living in that area aren't the types to put up with crappy roads.

My bet is now on him having been speeding, coming up on a slower car and loosing it during a lane change to pass said car. And more than likely he was on the phone trying to talk to the people he was going to meet at the film shoot.
I also find it interesting that he doesn't remember the accident now but was lucid when it happened.
My wife would call it selective amnesia if it were me claiming such.

^ From Wayne's post the speed limit is 45 mph. I think it's probably a safe bet that he was going a bit faster than that.

It also looks like the road was recently re-paved. That may be why the lane markers are not painted, but I don't know. They should have painted the curb at the nose of the median in yellow and it should be delineated with a reflective post.

BTW, I love the wall murals. So funny!

That's 3 well publicized Tiger/motor vehicle bad incidents. That's it, he's not driving any of my cars

That difference in the pavement 'color' shows the delineation between RHE and RPV.
It looks like there is yellow paint, or was, on the nose of the median as well as a yellow line on the inner side of the left lane.
Neither of those municipalities would put up with a reflective post. It would ruin the 'country atmosphere' they try for up in that neck of the woods.

ROFLMAO
If I'd been drinking coffee, I'd have probably just sprayed it all over my keyboard and/or monitor.

If your theory is correct, and he was going anywhere near 45 mph or less, it seems like he would have ended up maybe as far as the blue circle. Not way down where he ended up in the red

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614292339.jpg

Wayne,

You will enjoy this podcast about the Toyota "runaway accelerator" lawsuits from 2009. This is tragic but black box deemed it was 100% operator error. The reason why will surprise you, but may be related to Tiger driving an unfamiliar rental car, not the road. Most of these cases were rental cars. Guy thinks he's pressing the brake, but he's stomping the gas, and never realizes all he needed to do was lift.

Revisionist History Podcast

Who the fk cares?