Looking for some ideas - daughter refuses to do school work

[myamoto1]

I know it sounds like the basic kid hates school complaint, but (maybe because I'm going through it) I feel like this is above and beyond the normal hatred towards school.

She is 15 and absolutely refuses to see any value in school. This is not a new COVID mental state, but an escalation of a pre-existing hatred towards school. Even as far back as kindergarten, she hated school. I remember multiple days of the principal literally having to chase her around the parking lot to get her back into the school. Things seemed to calm down a small bit through middle school, but it was still a struggle to get her to do her work.

Most of her friends are the types that will remind the teacher that he/she forgot to assign homework, so I don't feel like it's a "she's in with the wrong crowd" issue. We've brought her to several different counselors over the years, but she has flat out told us that she will only tell the counselor the bare minimum of what they want to hear or refuses to talk all together. Now because of minor rights protections, we can't find out from the counselor if she's making good on her threats.

As long as you're not talking about school or other responsibilities (holding her accountable), she's an awesome kid. However, we can't sit idly by as she fails school and tells us how she doesn't care if she drops out and becomes homeless. My wife and I are at a loss on what to do. Our hearts are broken for her. I feel like we've tried the normal routes, but the school will only minimally engage, counselors don't seem to have an impact and we're at our wit's end.

[oldE]

Sounds like an avoidance strategy to me.
Does she respond to challenges? Set some carrots in her future for achieving certain objectives.

Glad I didn't have your problem.

Best
Les

[recycled sixtie]

Bribery, question bank, online learning tools. Whatever it takes. Get them to teach you.
Tell her you are not going to support her forever. These are my wife's ideas.

[Arizona_928]

What motivates her?

Incentives work extremely well even as adults. I would try to stay away from bribery. That's a slippery slope

[fintstone]

A mentor works very well for many kids. A slightly older, cool friend that is enthusiastic who can laud the benefits of school and set an example works well...if you can find them. Maybe a college kid. One good way to find the right person is by hiring the right tutor that meets those qualifications.

[myamoto1]

Oh, she's definitely avoiding, but we can't find out why... I was never a big fan of school, until I was kicked out and sent to boarding school, but I at least did the bare minimum to get by. She's smart, the work she does turn in, she's getting mid-80s to 90s on.

She doesn't care about carrots. We've tried that approach as well as the penalize her approach. For rewards, she just shrugs her shoulders and says, "who cares" (even when she's defined the carrot). If we take away her phone until "X" is done, she'll say, "you forgot my iPad, Chromebook and headphones". It feels impossible to get her to care or engage in any penalties or rewards.

Happy you're not dealing with this problem also, but kinda wish you were to offer up some hope...

[rusnak]

Minor rights?

Take away the computer, any access to credit, and give her an Obama phone and let her know might as well get used to it.

[LWJ]

Josh,

Funny small world, I was just thinking about "Fat Bastard" last week. I digress...


I, too, have a surly 15 year old. Pre COVID, she was A+ on everything. A happy, normal kid.

COVID threw her a nasty curve ball. Grades went into the toilet. Spring 20 it would have been D's and F's, but they sort of fudged the numbers into everybody passes.

Fall 20 it was F'in AWFUL.

Then we got a pretty good counselor. She screamed and raged at first. Then got slightly better. She has an appointment today. Threw a small fit. But, getting better. (I hope!) That is my experience.

Your kid? It is so easy to armchair quarterback. "Suck it up, lazy ass." Well, it sounds good on TV. In reality? Maybe not so much.

My Advice - since I am in a VERY similar situation. (And yes, my TAG kid has ALWAYS hated school.)

1) School is not optional.

2) Her school experience IS optional. We gave our kid a choice for high schools. We have a great situation that worked out for our oldest to go to a different public school that was a great fit. We told our 15 year old she could go there. Go to a sister school across town. And, when the S hit the fan, I said we could homeschool if that worked. I didn't care. I was desperate.

3) Give the child control. Being a kid means limited control. If you can give options for things, this is good.

4) Tell her that you are on her side. But remind her about #1 - School is NOT optional. If you allow her some decision making, it can't hurt.

5) I know you said she hates counselors. I would suggest that you make this non-optional as well. And, get a private one. I can refer ours if you care. She is local. And I like her. (Sidenote, my now 19 year old son went through a NASTY spell at age 14. Counselling did wonders for him and he is doing great at UO as a freshman.)

6) My wife really obsesses about grades. I think this is a huge error. I focus on is my kid happy or not. I also try to find things that distract my kid and we can do together. Watching The Tick is something we love. There are others. Like riding a tandem bike. Taking the boxster to get ice cream. Distractions.

7) Get a tutor if there are struggles. My kid has an IQ that is 4 or 5 std deviations over average. She is pretty darn smart. BUT, math was killing her. We got a tutor over her protests. It has helped remove the conflict from US to she just does the math with the tutor. Yay.

Damn. You have asked one of the hardest questions there is to answer. As I trained my dog today, I commented "too bad children don't respond to bacon treats..."

Good luck. I hope something here helps.

[myamoto1]

Arizona - that's the $64k question... She doesn't seem to be motivated by anything. She does dance, but despite her saying how much she "loves" it, she never practices outside of class and won't push herself in class.

I like the mentor/tutor idea, but we've broached that topic with her recently and it was met with such defiance, it ended with my wife in tears and me ready to go on the warpath because of what was said to my wife and me. We've considered just hiring a tutor and just have them show up at the house, but "ambushing" her tends to escalate things to a whole new level.

I appreaciate everyone's insights and suggestions. Please keep them coming!

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Minor rights?

Take away the computer, any access to credit, and give her an Obama phone and let her know might as well get used to it.

IMHO you'll get no better advice than this ^^^.

If a fifteen year old child is so keen on exercising her "minor rights" and flaunting (I say flaunting, because your post gives the impression that she's not at all bashful about shoving them in your face) the powers these rights afford her, then she should actually appreciate the opportunity to pay for her own phone, cable, internet, etc. and to see to other certain necessities of life without the burden of her parents' involvement.

I'd let her know that some form of education is coming her way and that which form that education takes is, for now anyway, up to her.

_
_

[myamoto1]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Minor rights?

Take away the computer, any access to credit, and give her an Obama phone and let her know might as well get used to it.

Yeah - even Google and Apple are in on it. Once a kid hits 13, you as a parent have limited rights over restrictions and access to medical info (counselor sessions are considered medical). So I could continue to pay thousands in counseling and never have a clue if she's actually engaging with the counselor or just having staring contests. The longest we've lasted is about 6mo, with no noticeable change in attitude or demeanor, so my bet is on staring contests...

Originally Posted by LWJ

Josh,

Funny small world, I was just thinking about "Fat Bastard" last week. I digress...
I think about FB all the time... he's patiently waiting for me to fix him. New battery is on the way, then fuel lines, then back in action!

I, too, have a surly 15 year old. Pre COVID, she was A+ on everything. A happy, normal kid.

COVID threw her a nasty curve ball. Grades went into the toilet. Spring 20 it would have been D's and F's, but they sort of fudged the numbers into everybody passes.

Fall 20 it was F'in AWFUL.

Then we got a pretty good counselor. She screamed and raged at first. Then got slightly better. She has an appointment today. Threw a small fit. But, getting better. (I hope!) That is my experience. How long has she been going to the counselor? See my comments above, but 6mo, a lot of money and nothing to show for it. Would love to know who you're using (PM me, if you don't mind sharing)

Your kid? It is so easy to armchair quarterback. "Suck it up, lazy ass." Well, it sounds good on TV. In reality? Maybe not so much.

My Advice - since I am in a VERY similar situation. (And yes, my TAG kid has ALWAYS hated school.)

1) School is not optional. Clearly communicated, but has been nearly impossible to enforce

2) Her school experience IS optional. We gave our kid a choice for high schools. We have a great situation that worked out for our oldest to go to a different public school that was a great fit. We told our 15 year old she could go there. Go to a sister school across town. And, when the S hit the fan, I said we could homeschool if that worked. I didn't care. I was desperate. We gave her options a well. She kept saying "no school" was her choice. See 1 above. She chose the 100% online school. We laid out parameters for her to meet to keep 100% virtual school a viable option. She has refused to meet those, so she is (our choice now) going back to "regular" high school next year.

3) Give the child control. Being a kid means limited control. If you can give options for things, this is good. We've tried to engage with her to be part of the solution, but even choices/parameters she has made, she doesn't honor

4) Tell her that you are on her side. But remind her about #1 - School is NOT optional. If you allow her some decision making, it can't hurt.We've tried this and have not had success. We've done everything from letting her choose the school, to the classes and helping define success criteria, but she won't follow through and goes into lockdown.

5) I know you said she hates counselors. I would suggest that you make this non-optional as well. And, get a private one. I can refer ours if you care. She is local. And I like her. (Sidenote, my now 19 year old son went through a NASTY spell at age 14. Counselling did wonders for him and he is doing great at UO as a freshman.) All of the counselors we've tried were private and not through the school. Please PM me who you're using.

6) My wife really obsesses about grades. I think this is a huge error. I focus on is my kid happy or not. I also try to find things that distract my kid and we can do together. Watching The Tick is something we love. There are others. Like riding a tandem bike. Taking the boxster to get ice cream. Distractions. We are definitely trying to put her happiness first. We're not asking/requiring As and Bs, just passing grades. I've tried to find activities, but she disengages pretty quickly, but admittedly, I need to keep trying more

7) Get a tutor if there are struggles. My kid has an IQ that is 4 or 5 std deviations over average. She is pretty darn smart. BUT, math was killing her. We got a tutor over her protests. It has helped remove the conflict from US to she just does the math with the tutor. Yay. Where did you find the tutor? I think we may give this approach a try again

Damn. You have asked one of the hardest questions there is to answer. As I trained my dog today, I commented "too bad children don't respond to bacon treats..." Well, my daughter did say in kindergarten that her favorite animal was a pig, because they're so tasty, so I might need to give bacon treats a try!

Good luck. I hope something here helps.

I really appreciate the suggestions and am happy (not happy) to know that we're not alone in this.

[Rusty Heap]

Ask her what 33% off a sale price is for those new jeans she wants, if she can answer, buy them.

[myamoto1]

Originally Posted by Norm K

IMHO you'll get no better advice than this ^^^.

If a fifteen year old child is so keen on exercising her "minor rights" and flaunting (I say flaunting, because your post gives the impression that she's not at all bashful about shoving them in your face) the powers these rights afford her, then she should actually appreciate the opportunity to pay for her own phone, cable, internet, etc. and to see to other certain necessities of life without the burden of her parents' involvement.

I'd let her know that some form of education is coming her way and that which form that education takes is, for now anyway, up to her.

_
_

I get what is being communicated here, but isn't really the issue. "Minor rights" is not her throwing anything in our face, it's our f'd up society and laws preventing me from knowing if they're engaging with their counselor. Despite footing the bill, the counselor can't tell me anything (not even basic engagement info) about their sessions, without my daughter's consent. On the tech front, parent tracking, website restrictions, etc. are all "optional" once a child turns 13, per Google and Apple's policies.

My daughter has no credit card, just her own money. She bought her own Apple phone, because I refused to pay $850 for a kid's phone. I pay the phone/data plan, which is why I can still take away the phone. Trust me, we've gone through the "sim card and internet access are mine and will be removed, or you can just hand over the phone" conversations. She also "happily" hands over the phone and is quick to remind us to take her other electronics too.

[Roswell]

You need to get her into therapy. This is only going to go from bad to worse.

[stomachmonkey]

Sounds to me like the issue goes deeper than "taking away her iphone" will solve.

Dyslexia, hearing issues, other learning disabilities that may not be outwardly obvious commonly result in this type of persistent behaviour.

Many here who are offering strong arm advice would also advocate that college is not for everyone and what's wrong with a trade?

Why can't the same philosophy apply to High School?

Have you tried giving her the option of blowing off school?

As in OK, you don't have to go but what is it that you want to do instead? And "nothing" is not an answer, though it may be a clue.

Leave it up to her, she goes to school or she gets a job, learns a trade.

I do believe, if you haven't already, a complete medical work up is in order here.

This could be a chemical or hormonal imbalance.

I feel like there is a lot more going on than maybe she is even aware of. She feels a certain way and may not know why.

[Eric Hahl]

Depression? Some other mental issue that might be overlooked? That's all I got. Sorry to hear this bud.

[masraum]

Interesting.

What does she do (since she doesn't do school)? Does she see/chat with friends? Does she have activities? Does she have a job.

How does she do in school (grades, social/friends)? Is it possible, since this has been an issue since she was tiny that there's something that's causing the problem? You hear about kids with dyslexia hating school or maybe autism/aspergers causing issues.

To me it seems like you either need to make it painful (punishment, no internet, no cell phone, no money, no TV, whatever). Or maybe there's an underlying cause, and you need to figure out the cause (which I guess has been the point of the counselors).

Unfortunately, I don't have any answers, but I feel for you. Our kids are in their 30s. One was pretty much a breeze, the other was trying/difficult. At times, we weren't sure that one would make it to being a productive adult, but fortunately, that's not an issue.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Sounds to me like the issue goes deeper than "taking away her iphone" will solve.

Dyslexia, hearing issues, other learning disabilities that may not be outwardly obvious commonly result in this type of persistent behaviour.

Many here who are offering strong arm advice would also advocate that college is not for everyone and what's wrong with a trade?

Why can't the same philosophy apply to High School?

Have you tried giving her the option of blowing off school?

As in OK, you don't have to go but what is it that you want to do instead? And "nothing" is not an answer, though it may be a clue.

Leave it up to her, she goes to school or she gets a job, learns a trade.

I do believe, if you haven't already, a complete medical work up is in order here.

This could be a chemical or hormonal imbalance.

I feel like there is a lot more going on than maybe she is even aware of. She feels a certain way and may not know why.

Originally Posted by Eric Hahl

Depression? Some other mental issue that might be overlooked? That's all I got. Sorry to hear this bud.

^^ this ^^ is what I'm thinking.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by myamoto1

My daughter has no credit card, just her own money.

Where's that money come from?

[Seahawk]

All the best during this difficult time. This is the most vexing problem parents face, in my mind, a change from accomplishment to ennui without a clear reason.

I wish I could provide an answer. Bless you for reaching out.