Natural Gas VS Propane

[sewell94]

I'm thinking of converting from natural gas to propane. We have 3 furnaces, stove, hot water heater, 3 fireplaces (barely use the natural gas portion) and pool heater. We are in NE Ohio.

We are right on edge the "tiers" for the infrastructure riders etc, so our bill before we use any of gas is almost $200. I'm tired of getting over charged.

Any of my fellow Pelicans done the swap before or vice versa? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[fastfredracing]

I'm confused, I thought propane was less efficient, and cost more ??
I am converting back from propane to gas

[biosurfer1]

Originally Posted by fastfredracing

I'm confused, I thought propane was less efficient, and cost more ??
I am converting back from propane to gas

"The true cost of propane vs. natural gas for your residence will depend on several factors, including if your home is outfitted for the fuels. But, for this comparison, we値l examine propane and natural gas cost in terms of BTUs and gallons.

At the time this article was written, the average cost of natural gas cost is $6.23 per 1,000 cubic feet, which is roughly one million BTUs. The U.S. average cost for propane is $2.41 per gallon. One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you値l pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.

However, actual cost should also take into consideration efficiency

The more efficient the fuel is, the less you値l use, which plays a role in overall cost. And, overall, propane is the more efficient fuel.

One cubic foot of propane equals 2,516 BTUs, while one cubic foot of natural gas equals 1,030 BTUs. That means, propane is more than twice the energy of natural gas.

While the cost per gallon is less for natural gas, you値l use more of it to heat the same appliances. If you get two times the heat from propane, naturally, you値l use less fuel.

In this combined round, propane wins for efficiency and overall cost."

[sewell94]

Originally Posted by fastfredracing

I'm confused, I thought propane was less efficient, and cost more ??
I am converting back from propane to gas

It does not have any thing to do with the differences in natural gas vs propane.

Our issue is we use so much gas, we get bumped to a higher tier for the infrastructure and other BS charges on your bill, so before we use a drop of gas, our bill is over $200. Think of paying commercial rate vs residential.

Our gas bill for last month was like $260 bucks, because we are in the higher tier, my friend who used almost same amount last month was like $75

Its about not paying the excessive charges.

[Crowbob]

So why doesn’t that article say 1m BTU’s of propane cost X and 1m BTU’s of NG cost y?

Math is hard.

[cabmandone]

Check your propane prices. Right now summer fill, if you own your own tank, is 1.39-1.44 per gallon around here. It's more if you lease the tank. I have 3 gas furnaces, gas water heater, gas dryer and gas range. I spend around 1600 to 1800 annually keeping the House at 71 during the winter, shop at 55 and exercise room in the barn at 50 unless I'm in there exercising then it goes up to 65 for about an hour.

You should be able to calculated what your bill would be for propane by using the cubic feet of NG used and converting that to gallons.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

"
At the time this article was written, the average cost of natural gas cost is $6.23 per 1,000 cubic feet, which is roughly one million BTUs. The U.S. average cost for propane is $2.41 per gallon. One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.

(SNIP)

One cubic foot of propane equals 2,516 BTUs, while one cubic foot of natural gas equals 1,030 BTUs. That means, propane is more than twice the energy of natural gas.
While the cost per gallon is less for natural gas, you’ll use more of it to heat the same appliances. If you get two times the heat from propane, naturally, you’ll use less fuel.
In this combined round, propane wins for efficiency and overall cost"

I'm having trouble reconciling those two statements.

Stipulated that a million BTUs of natural gas cost $6.23 and a million BTUs of propane costs $26.99. It seems to me that if the end product you are looking for is heat (BTUs), how it is delivered - gallons, cubic feet, pounds, cords, or tons shouldn't make any difference as long as you are getting the most BTUs per dollar.
According to his first statement natural gas delivers the most BTUs per dollar. The second statement doesn't make a lot of sense. Propane has twice the energy density of natural gas and cost over 4 times as much per BTU, so how is that a win for propane?

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by sewell94

It does not have any thing to do with the differences in natural gas vs propane.

Our issue is we use so much gas, we get bumped to a higher tier for the infrastructure and other BS charges on your bill, so before we use a drop of gas, our bill is over $200. Think of paying commercial rate vs residential.

Our gas bill for last month was like $260 bucks, because we are in the higher tier, my friend who used almost same amount last month was like $75

Its about not paying the excessive charges.

Still missing something for me. So it痴 not how much gas you池e using but the number of connected devices?

For me, aside from cost, one of the biggest drawbacks is that propane doesn稚 burn as cleanly. In my experience, all the pots and pans had blackened bottoms.

[sewell94]

You pay for the gas you use,

Then you pay for "Detailed Delivery" Charges, My bill has Customer charge, infrastructural replacement program rider, capital expenditure program rider, infrastructure development rider, delivery charge, and then a usage based charge. Company i am forced to use for delivery services is less than 3299 CCF, its this price, you use over 3300 CCF its this price,

We are just over the 3300, have been for the past 2 years, even though we have made significant cuts back. So before we use a CCF of gas, we pay over 200 dollars per month. In March we used 391ccf, $232 of "detailed Delivery charges", May we use 110ccf, and had $206 of "Detailed Delivery" charges.

I do not care if the gas itself cost more, i want to get rid of the $2500 plus year of bull**** fees.

[cabmandone]

Have you called the gas company and asked them to start using KY?

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

"The true cost of propane vs. natural gas for your residence will depend on several factors, including if your home is outfitted for the fuels. But, for this comparison, we値l examine propane and natural gas cost in terms of BTUs and gallons.

At the time this article was written, the average cost of natural gas cost is $6.23 per 1,000 cubic feet, which is roughly one million BTUs. The U.S. average cost for propane is $2.41 per gallon. One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you値l pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.

However, actual cost should also take into consideration efficiency

The more efficient the fuel is, the less you値l use, which plays a role in overall cost. And, overall, propane is the more efficient fuel.

One cubic foot of propane equals 2,516 BTUs, while one cubic foot of natural gas equals 1,030 BTUs. That means, propane is more than twice the energy of natural gas.

While the cost per gallon is less for natural gas, you値l use more of it to heat the same appliances. If you get two times the heat from propane, naturally, you値l use less fuel.

In this combined round, propane wins for efficiency and overall cost."

No. This is false logic. Heating is based on the BTUs. You may use less flow, but that does not mean more efficient.

Natural gas is usually about $5-6 per MMBTU. BUT as the OP said, his issue isn't the direct price per BTU, but the service cost.

What we need to know is how much gas is the OP using, then check the total cost vs. same heating value in propane.

[cabmandone]

Here's the deal:
In order to pay the least amount for propane you need to own your own tank. You also want to make sure you have enough storage to get you through the winter to fill at summer rates (normally). Figure out your normal natural gas usage for a year and convert that to gallons. Then figure out what the tanks are going to cost you to own.

Absent the above, you want to make sure the company providing the propane doesn't have you on auto fill because they'll come out based on degree days to top you off in the winter when prices are the highest. You want to be in "will call" if they'll let you but that means checking your percentages, understanding your usage, and knowing when to call in before you run out.

[red-beard]

Maybe the solution is to convert the Natural gas fireplaces to electric. That could reduce your infrastructure charge.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Maybe the solution is to convert the Natural gas fireplaces to electric. That could reduce your infrastructure charge.

Or get a 100 gallon upright tank and convert them to propane. Setback stats on the furnaces (assuming not all are in the house) might help too so you're only heating when you're using the space. On NG you could buy one of the new high efficiency water heaters from A.O Smith or State that double as water heat source. The things are crazy efficient and can heat spaces if you run a line and registers. Also check insulation of the home and reduce drafts which reduces furnace runtime.

[wdfifteen]

Is your property such that you have a place to site propane tanks? Your county likely has property line setback and structure setback regulations.
All those surcharges are insane. How can anyone afford all that nonsense?

[red-beard]

When we installed our pool, they did have to change out out gas meter and install a few new pressure regulators. The meter now operated at 2 psig instead of 7-11 in H2O pressure. This was to allow my pool heater (400,000 BTU/hr) to work. It also allows my Generator (300,000 BTU/HR) to work.

Maybe in his area, if you have the bigger meter, they require a higher surcharge.

Most of my bill in the Spring-summer-fall is service charge, as my hot attic heats my hot water heater way above the normal temp. And my only other gas usage in the summer is my stove.

Winter my usage goes up, but still pretty dinky compared to most places.

[sewell94]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Natural gas is usually about $5-6 per MMBTU. BUT as the OP said, his issue isn't the direct price per BTU, but the service cost.

What we need to know is how much gas is the OP using, then check the total cost vs. same heating value in propane.

Correct, The service costs are the issue. When we bought the house it, was on a budget of 200 per month. Which surprised us, seemed low for the size of the house. We replaced one furnace, and made sure the others were up to par. First year or 2, we averaged right about 2400 for the year for heating, didn't really pay attention to it. Then one year we were over the tiered number for the increase in charges, price skyrockets, called them, explained we had a nasty gas leak on the pipe going to the outdoor grill (which was present since we purchased the house, and didn't realize it) So they waved the higher rates, for a year. And Boom next year, same deal we are over the usage number (except we now don't have a nasty gas leak, it should have went down just due to that).

So for the past 2 years I've been paying it, and i'm really fed-up with being charged more for barely anymore usage over the tiered limit. We had lowered the thermostat, used the fireplaces (with wood, not the gas) more for heat, and use the pool heater alot less. Gas usage should have went down alot. I've signed up for the gas company energy audit deals, with no response. I'm working on going to a wood burner for the pool and some other things.

I have a sour taste in my mouth, and really want rid of giving them any of my money. Gas company has said the tiered system was really designed to get business's to cover the expenses, but some larger homes get caught with it. At least with propane, i have some control over my fixed costs.

We have just under 3 acres, so i don't see putting in a 1000 gallon tank being an issue.

[red-beard]

At the price difference per MMBTU, I just don't see how that is going to work. As some of the guys have said, use the propane or electric for some of the low use things to get you under the limit.

On the hot water heater, you could switch to electric heat pump. They are about 4 times the efficiency of electric resistance hot water. Pool heater would be a natural for the propane. But remember, you need to have the jets converted.

[hbueno]

What I find mind-boggling is that your base bill is $200 before you use any gas. My highest gas bill in the last 18 months was $291 for February of this year. My lowest bill was $24 for August 2020. This is for a 2500 sq ft home with gas-fired hot water heating, gas hot water heater, gas stove, and gas dryer.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by red-beard

At the price difference per MMBTU, I just don't see how that is going to work.

Exactly, that was my first thought.