It doesn’t matter, I’m simply curious.

Bottom line for me, I’m not looking for reasons to judge other people. I could care less if someone wears a hat indoors. My dad pounded the hat rule into us when we were young so I instinctively take off my hat at the majority of indoor places. I never questioned why or even thought about it, until this thread popped up. Fint satisfied my curiosity.

I was at basically the same mass yesterday with my 85 year old mother. There were 5 or 6 RCIA candidates presented. I'm a lapsed catholic, who ironically works at a catholic school. I've been taking my mom to church every weekend though. She's in memory care and this is a great outing for her. My wife is getting a kick out of all of this as she bugs me constantly about being a non believer.

Anyway, an older guy was in church yesterday in running gear, shorts, and a green bay packers stocking cap. Your 25 year old was overdressed compared to this guy. Given how empty churches are these days, I guess butts in seats is a good thing.

And that, right there, is the root of the problem.

For some people it’s all about me, and the hell with you.

This decline in culture and intelligence goes far beyond hat wearing. People dress like bums, have no grasp of vocabulary, haven’t read a single book in the last year, couldn’t write a check or balance a checkbook, can’t tell you how many nickels are in a dollar and fail in every other aspect of their personal ability.

If you think none of this matters, there are countries out there that will soon prove to you that they do.

I know we disagree politically, but this is 100% spot on.

100% agree.

In recent years I've seen grown a$$ adults wearing workout clothes or tennis clothes to Mass either on their way to or from the workout/tennis match. Sorry, but you aren't that busy that you can't dress appropriately.

There is a big difference between "this is all I have" and the person that has plenty of $$ but choses to dress like they weren't taught better by their parents.

2 other things I forgot to mention:

One of the RCIA 'teachers' routinely wears Dallas Cowboy jerseys to Mass during the NFL season. So we know he isn't providing the new guy with the proper education.

Secondly... during the RCIA ceremony yesterday, this woman walked up to the pew in front of us and literally forced her way onto the pew and didn't even bother to ask the people sitting there if they could scoot down. Her purpose??? She took out her phone to video record the event for her relative that appeared to be about 30 yo. Honestly, it isn't your kids effen dance recital...

I concur that this doesn't apply to women. But FFS, it should on some level as they seem to have pushed the boundaries. I get that women can wear nice hats indoors and in church. However, I've seen them wearing baseball caps and baseball caps with bedazzled stuff on them. I really don't think the general rule contemplates that, nor the drunken cowboy hat that you bought at the Redneck Rivera but I've seen that too.

Also (and not to get too far off the original) women get away with murder when it comes to business attire. Last week I was in court wearing suit/tie. One of the female ADAs had on what would equate for a man as slacks and a shirt, no jacket. Totally wrong, at least wear a jacket (like her subordinate was wearing...). If I showed up like that, no doubt that the judge would tell me to leave and return when appropriately dressed.

We need a bit more of this. Everything I need to learn about how to act in life came from Andy Griffith

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.Yes ........I agree with the OP. I was taught that a man wearing a hat indoors, is being disrespectful to the host(s) and other guests. Our church, non-denominational, have people from all cultures, back-grounds and income levels in attendance.

Some of the younger guys wear ball caps in the sanctuary as well as some younger women roll in with their giant gallon jug of 7-11 'juice' and cell phones which are apparently now an actual appendage out of their hand. And for some reason cannot put either one down long enough to receive the message from our praise and worship team or one of our pastors.

I am glad they are there, but bothers me that, in my upbringing being is disrespectful to the message and the family. My $.02

It seems to me, that tolerating small things leads to large ones. We start with our children and teach them to respect our rules and those of society at large. Written and unwritten. Everything form removing a hat to children being sitting quietly in a store or restaurant for safety and as not to disturb other shoppers or diners who also paid their own good money to be there.

As children get older, they learn a broader set of customs, courtesies and laws society has imposed to keep order and help people interact socially. Good behavior on the playground and in school where others are hopefully trying to learn something (and make something of themself so their family will be proud of them). Among these are prohibitions against crime and mistreatment of the weak (women, children, animals, etc.). It also includes moral values like those of hard work and sacrifice, delayed gratification and providing for oneself and one's family. These expand to service to the community and nation. Share customs, courtesies and values are what makes a melting pot of a country work. Failure to enforce them socially and in the family (stigmatize those that fail to meet our standards of behavior) lets them down and the entire community.

When I joined the Air Force, they provided some very clear rules of behavior and very specific ways to do certain tasks. Wear of a uniform, headwear, when each could be worn, etc. When and how to salute...even marching had to be done perfectly in an era when most people drove. Beds had to be made immediately upon rising and in a very exacting way. One practice that struck most as particularly odd was the way we had to keep our possessions. We each had a small locker with a single drawer. Each garment had to hang facing the same direction with the buttons buttoned and the trousers had to all be hanged in a certain standardized manner. The same with items in the drawer which included shaving gear, soap, shampoo, handkerchief, underwear/t-shirts and belt. Each had a specific spot, size and orientation. No deviations were allowed. The t-shirts and underwear had to be folded and oriented in a very specific manner. They had to be folded exactly a certain way and size (Drill Instructor measured them) when you were out in class of physical training and standards were strictly enforces...every day. I wondered why they did this...and one instructor noted that they couldn't trust people with big things until they proved they could be trusted with small ones. If we could not fold our underwear as instructed, they were not going to trust us with using a weapon properly/safely or to work on an aircraft or nuclear weapon. We had very strict guidelines to follow in our future military jobs that we may or may not understand the reasoning for (or agree) but we would have to follow them without hesitation or deviation. It seemed to work well as generations of 18-year-olds went on to training and subsequently working on and operating complex aircraft. missile, nuclear weapon systems etc. without killing themselves or destroying the world.

Rules at school, the military, and society at large were always pretty easy for me and helped me be relatively successful in business and marriage. Even though I had very humble beginnings and arguably less opportunity than some. It was largely because my family, community, church, and school all had standards...and all enforced them. Not all of the standards of behavior were easy, practical, or even made a lot of sense to me at the time. Many make more sense now (but not all). None harmed me in any way.

My prediction was right. In Zoom court this morning wearing just shirt/tie. In 2 courts that was no issue. The third court, judge told me and another attorney to put on jacket. Meanwhile a female attorney was allowed to wear just a shirt.

Meanwhile my client, whom I had instructed on proper court attire, was wearing a PBR t-shirt and shorts. He was a heartbeat away from a bond increase.

Yup. And again, for those unfamiliar with Catholic culture, males may not ever.....ever.....wear a hat at Mass. Women used to be required to cover their heads, and they can still be seen wearing veils atop their heads or hats. Men....never ever.

And as a separate matter - manners generally are going the way of the Dodo bird.

Women live in a different world to men. Always have always will. SmileWavy

And just to get this off my chest... Tattoos. I really don't get it.

I just dress casual. Shorts in the summer time and jeans in the cold months. Most of the time a t-shirt or polo shirt for nicer restaurants. I have not been inside a church since the days of photographing weddings for a living. That was a suit and tie event.

When I appeared in front of a judge to accept the duties of executor of my dad's estate was the last time I wore a tie. I plan to never wear a tie again. I wore enough ties in my lifetime as a photographer that I have used my my lifetime quota, and I set that limit.

For weddings or events that are "dressy" I have what my wife calls my uniform. Nice slacks and a full button up shirt and a sport coat if it is cold.

I wear a ball cap style hat with my company logo on it is it is sunny to keep the sun off my face, or it is is cold to keep my head warm. I will take it off at a restaurant as I sit down. I do always hold doors open for ladies and let them in first, and if a guy is right behind me I will hold it open so they can grab the door to follow me in to a business.

One of my wife's work friends got married in the Arcadia Round Barn, on Rt66. My wife was having a hard time wearing jeans to a wedding and called the bride. She replied "we're gettin married in a barn" so please wear jeans. That was a nice change.

We do disagree politically, and Javadog's comment was indeed spot-on. And while I don't want to PARF up this thread, I will say that some folks seem to have a blind spot about that. He says:

"For some people it’s all about me, and the hell with you."

Selfishness, right? Just where does "freedom" end and "selfishness" begin? I see folks INSISTING that they are free to dismiss whatever requirements they want to dismiss, even mandates, because.....FREEDOM. Nevermind that people are dying. I am free to drive 100 mph along residential streets with my eyes closed.

Yes, there is a problem with the "It's all about ME, and the hell with YOU" thing.

When I flew to Tahiti it was on New Zealand Airlines.

All airline employees included "Please" and "Thank You" when communicating with each other - as well as with their customers.

==========

When I worked in sales as a supplier, the company I worked for put emphasis on relationship building. I'll never forget learning the concept that fellow associates were also customers. And thus, should be treated as such.

==========

The everyday person would benefit from some of the basics we espoused in sales.....

I'm curious about how people would define the term or concept of "respect".

To you, what is respect? How would you define it?

Respect has several meetings, in this case, the dictionary defines it as “ due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others.”

wow, imagine a life so perfect that someone else wearing a hat is the worst thing you can complain about.



literally, no one cares. no one should.

It appears that is not the case based on posts here so far. Maybe people do care and some clue bags just don't get it.

yeah, lotta old men who think compliance to some arbitrary code of conduct means something.

it doesnt. never did. but you'll grasp at those straws all day.

plato said the next generation didnt have the work ethic of his generation too. slate teachers bemoaned the adoptions of pen and paper, losing a feel for the slate/chalk they said.

Absolutely. Things would be a lot better if all men had a "code of conduct" they subscribed to. It is much like punctuation, grammar, and sentence structure. People just seem to communicate better with punctuation and if the noun and verb are in agreement.

I think you refer to a quote of Socrates (as quoted by Plato):

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

That sure does seem to apply today. Funny how the same old problems seem to keep recurring when a society rejects/moves away from discipline and wholesome shared values/traditions.

imagine reading that quote, and coming to the conclusion that you are right. imagine having that little self-reflective ability.

eeek.

the joke is that every generation has criticized every subsequent generation for these exact things, ergo, your complaints are as meaningless as every other generations were. your generation was just as much a failure as mine, or genZ according to people like this.

a good reminder to never get "old" like this. the kids are alright, in fact, they are better than we are. and thank god. we could only fix so much of our parents failings, thank god someone is going to improve on us.

That covers a lot of territory though. I don't know how people would consciously process all of the feelings, wishes, rights, and traditions.

I'm wondering what it means to have respect, to show respect to the people here.

What is your personal understanding of the term "show respect"? I'm just curious about what the guys here would say.

in this case, the issue at hand is what jesus would have defined as respect.

imagine the jesus of the bible being like "bro, you are wearing a hat, you can't listen to me preach about god, get out"

the same guy who had tax collectors, prostitutes, and the abject poor as followers. the same guy who washed his followers feet instead of them washing his. that guy, is gonna be a hard ass about a hat? really? idk what bible you guys are reading, but its not the same one.

Absolutely correct. Rules must be set and enforced in a uniform manner. These days that doesn't seem to happen much. Hell, these days kids often don't mind or respect their parents, much less others.

Yes, military though does, I think, go several steps farther than is needed for most people most of the time (with very good reason).

As a small business owner dealing with a lot of large government agencies as well as large defense contractors, I always ask, "what is the dress code for the meeting"?

Ties seem to me to have become, "a magnificent anachronism" to reference 'Patton'.

I have my uniform as well...nice everything, no tie!

What does that mean to you though? Can you crystalize that into your own example?

It's an important word for us as a society.

I would also add the word "Excellence" and "Civility" as important words to emphasize as it relates to society.

Were I an educator, these words would all be included and emphasized in my daily instruction.

Ties :(.

Somebody care to explain them to me....

Type slow :D

To me, civility means to have good manners, and be polite. In other words, explain yourself when people may take offense. Apologize when you are at fault. show gratitude.

Excellence is a tough one. I'm Mr. Ten Tenths. I think my idea of what it means to be excellent is hard to relay.

Respect to me means putting others first. Consider them before you. Show that you hold them in high regard.

Right, because this is how you roll.

https://2x1dks3q6aoj44bz1r1tr92f-wpe...Sport-Coat.jpg

Imagine you reading it and not seeing yourself as others do.

Literally, one of the first pieces of advice I got from my first boss was the NEVER ever wear a real tie to press assignment that had the remotest possibility of any altercation. He said in one of the riots he covered a protestor grabbed him by the tie and used him as a punching bag. He had to smash his camera into the attacker's head to get away.

For weddings and the endless "grip and grin" dinners and events a real tie is OK when I was paid to be there. I play by their rules.

I just hate that feeling of choking from a tie around my neck. If some event in the future comes up where a tie is mandatory, I will get a clip on bow tie.

On the last few cruises we were on they had "dress up" night for dinner. I wore my nice slacks and a polo shirt. I am on vacation, and that is dressed up as I will get. Lots of people wore Tuxes and the ladies wore formal gowns. Fine for them, I am not gonna play that game. I was not in jeans, I was dressed nice as I will get when I am paying big bucks to be on a cruise for my vacation.

I think this puts it pretty well (I "bolded" some of the text):

What does the Bible say about wearing hats in church?

In Western culture, it has always been considered rude or disrespectful for a man to wear a hat inside a building, including a church building. Even a generation ago, when men commonly wore hats, the headgear was removed indoors, or even outdoors in the presence of a woman. In contrast, women’s hats have long been a standard part of a stylish or formal outfit, and wearing a hat indoors is acceptable for a woman.

This cultural tradition most likely has its roots in the Bible itself. The apostle Paul talks to the Corinthian church about this matter, saying, “A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God” (1 Corinthians 11:7). A few verses later, he says, “Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him?” (1 Corinthians 11:14). In verse 14 Paul is speaking specifically of “long hair,” rather than hats, but both are considered a “covering” for the head. Most modern churches would not consider long hair on a man to be disrespectful; nevertheless, this passage calls it a disgrace because long hair is inherently feminine. Since “long” is a relative description, we apply this according to the culture in which one lives. In the Corinthian culture, for men to wear any kind of head covering in church was for them to take on the role of the women, which is not the order God designed for spiritual headship (1 Corinthians 11:3).

Women have worn hats in church for centuries and still do so without it being considered disrespectful. Again, this goes back to the biblical idea of head coverings (probably veils) being used as an outward, cultural symbol of an inward attitude. However, nowhere in the Bible does it say women must wear hats or veils or kapps in church. The passages in 1 Corinthians 11 that seem to suggest women ought to have a head covering in church are better interpreted as a mandate for women to follow cultural norms, to show respect for one’s husband, and to maintain a distinctly feminine appearance. Many Bible scholars believe the only required covering for the woman is her hair (1 Corinthians 11:15). In either case, it’s difficult to be dogmatic about this passage. Some scholars say this passage is one of the most difficult in the whole New Testament to thoroughly understand.

What is important is that we are communicating Christian principles within the culture in which we live. It is traditional in Western culture for a man to take off his hat when entering a building or saluting the flag (with the exception of uniformed members of the military). Christians living in Western cultures should be aware of that tradition and show due respect in the customary way. During the playing of “The Star-Spangled Banner,” a civilian taking off his hat communicates respect (to the flag); during a church service, it communicates respect (to God). Similarly, in Eastern cultures, it is respectful to take off one’s shoes when entering a home or place of worship; Christians living in Eastern cultures should follow that custom, even if there is nothing in the Bible that specifically commands it.

Taking off one’s hat in church is simply a cultural way for a man to show respect and honor to God. Rather than bucking tradition and “doing our own thing,” we should usually follow the cultural rules, being careful to communicate respect for God in every way possible.

It is certain that God is much more interested in the posture of the heart than any outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7). Any woman is capable of wearing elaborate head coverings without having any genuine reverence for God’s established order of authority. But godly women who recognize that submission toward their husbands is as submission to the Lord (Ephesians 5:22) are the women God is pleased with. Whatever we do, motive is important. Whether or not a woman chooses to wear a head covering, let it be done with a genuine spirit of thanks to God in the name of the Lord Jesus (Colossians 3:17).

Of course, it is possible for a man to wear a baseball cap in church and yet have a heart full of reverence and awe for the Lord. And it is also possible for a man to remove his hat in church yet disdain God in his soul. God sees the heart. But the issue, sometimes, is what our actions communicate to others; people cannot see our hearts, so we must often show them our respect by what we do.

https://www.gotquestions.org/hats-in-church.html

Then it's my opinion that the shirt doesn't fit right. For me, I should be able to button the top button of a shirt and not feel strangled. If she shirt feels like that, then adding a tie shouldn't change the feeling at all. If it does, then you need to loosen the tie.

My wife watches lots of old movies and loves that they "dress for dinner." I have no doubt that she'd love to dress up for dinner, at least for special occasions. I like to look nice, but I'd rather be comfortable.

to me? it doesn't mean anything to me. wearing a hat or not is irrelevant to me. my opinions about church etiquette are irrelevant as i have no plans to attend a church in the near future.

but i find it funny that a bunch of people who claim to follow the god of the bible have their panties in a bunch over a hat, when jesus himself did basically everything possible to be as welcoming to even the most socially-rejected people in society. he explicitly on every occasion made sure to communicate that he was open to all, no matter how sinful or socially or economically beaten down.

its like its not about church, god, or jesus. its about compliance, and the power to socially compel someone to conform.

i love this bit cause its exposes the exact point im making.

Of course, it is possible for a man to wear a baseball cap in church and yet have a heart full of reverence and awe for the Lord. And it is also possible for a man to remove his hat in church yet disdain God in his soul. God sees the heart. But the issue, sometimes, is what our actions communicate to others; people cannot see our hearts, so we must often show them our respect by what we do.


its about social compulsion/punishment, nothing about respect or god or anything else. its about the OP's and other old men's feelings.

"...not the one thing."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfTAOsRki0E

Texan and fellow former All-Ivy athlete.