Decorum and being a gentleman
 

We attend a Catholic church mainly because my FIL goes there and my MIL died about 18 months ago. He is 88 and we don't want him to go alone. We would otherwise go to a different Catholic church if it were not for him (this one is just an auditorium with an alter on the side and looks nothing like a church, Catholic or otherwise). Background over.

So today we were in attendance and the adults that are taking classes (RCIA) to be baptized (having not been raised Catholic or didn't get it done when a kid) were being presented for admission or whatever it is called.

They walk in with the priest and then take their seats. One of the RCIA candidates was a young man about 25ish. Idiot walks in with a baseball cap on and halfway dressed like a cowboy. After Mass started it looked like an old man told him to fix himself and the hat disappeared for a bit. But it soon reappeared on his EFFEN head and was there during the Gospel reading and homily (sermon for you Prots).

Then when the entire RCIA group is called up to the alter for acknowledgement he walks there wearing his hat. Not one person from the RCIA leadership, nor his sponsor, said anything to him. Finally, a female usher comes all the way from the back of church and tells him to fix himself. He had a look like he didn't want to do it but finally did so, which was only moments before he was to walk up to the alter and sign some book.

I honestly don't get what is wrong with people. As for the kid; A. He is in a building, B. It is a church even if it doesn't look like one, and C. Cowboys don't wear hats indoors.

As for the RCIA leaders: they placed him in line to walk into church, then sat all around him, then were involved in the ceremony (one actually standing near him to tell people where to stand).

Did I miss a decorum or gentlemen memo that says it is ok for men to wear hats indoors, especially a church? I get it that times have changed but I seriously doubt that much.

Before anyone asks, I was land locked in my pew and couldn't get out and it was on the other side of the church. Otherwise I would have done it myself. Confrontation doesn't bother me.

Young people for the most part, haven't been taught the old rule about wearing hats indoors. These days a hat is most often a fashion statement or maybe vanity security blanket.

Wearing hats indoors is almost like writing in cursive.

For most people hats are fashion, not function.

So since fashion is a part of self-expression and personality, in the new self love ego narcissist economy we've created, asking someone to remove their hat is an attack on the very core of their existence.

In the old days it was just respectful to remove your hat.

Just look to the parents, probably a reason why he doesn't know any better.

Well in the case of the hat in church; the man was exercising a good thing by attending which, according to true Christians, would make his dress irrelevant in the eyes of the Lord.

^^^ This. I think ya still gotta be wearing a tie to enter through the Pearly Gates though ;).

I've thought about that too. Here he is trying to do the right thing but at the same time not comporting himself to what most would consider standard. So it is a fine line to point out the short coming and risk him walking away or going with it and setting new lower standard. Plus, I think "dress" in this setting is jeans vs suit, not whether one wears a hat. For the record: I had on jeans.

When I was stationed in Germany, the US Army Europe Command Sergeant Major had a commercial on Armed Forces TV. The gist was this: NCO's... when you walk by something that isn't up to standard and ignore it; you have created a new lower standard (thru your non-action). Although generally directed at NCOs it was a great lesson for everyone, officers included.

There once was a man who came to a church on Sunday dressed in jeans, t-shirt, and old sneakers. After the service, the pastor pulled him aside and asked the man to pray and ask God what he should wear when he came back next Sunday.
Well, the following Sunday the man showed up wearing the same things. After church, the pastor pulled the fellow aside and reminded him of what he told the man last week. The man replied he did ask God and God said "I have no idea what you should wear because I've never been inside that building".

The moral of the story is we need to worry about catching the fish more than cleaning them. Let God do the cleaning. I grant you, if you know the decorum in a particular place it is proper to honor the house rules or go to a different house but is it a mortal sin to wear white shoes after Labor Day too?

p.s.
-Hats in a building is no longer in poor taste
-In the old westerns the cowboys wore hats in the bars & stores...
-I suggest you re-read the story of where Jesus said that the religious uptights were 'white washed tombs' because they were more concerned with regulations than in a heart toward God or the parable in Luke 18:10-14

Ya... Um I'm now mostly bald, so completely functional considering I've already seen the mohs surgeon....

Yes, the fact he's actually in a church.... Any church at this point, is amazing and the exception not the rule... He can learn etiquette later. Last I checked the head carpenter wore bedsheets, so there is that. I'll take a ball cap over a redneck in a toga...

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I felt, as a father, that is was my responsibility to raise my daughter and son to have a sense of decorum and manners, just like I was.

Sometimes it isn't about you.

And then sometimes...

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My Dad took the picture....Parents Day at VMI.

Who made the rule that you don’t wear a hat indoors and what was the reason? I know I was always told to not do it by my dad but he always said it was polite to remove your hat not why it was polite.

That's my question too. Who made the rule, when was it made, and why? Seems mighty arbitrary to me.

Can I wear white pants after Labor Day? If not, why not?

I am 64, and have been Catholic as long as I can remember. There is another piece of this tale that (it seems) has not entered this thread. When I attended Ash Wednesday Mass four days ago, half the ladies were wearing scarfs on their heads. None of the men had head coverings. The Church no longer requires womens' heads to be covered, but it used to make this requirement. It has never been the slightest bit okay for a man to wear a hat at Mass. Big no-no. Not sure where Matthew attends Mass but at Sacred Heart Church on the campus of St. Martins University (which is also a Benedictine monastery by the way), an RCIA candidate would NEVER.....EVER get away with this.

Now before you guys sneer at the notion that I believe God distinguishes between hat-wearers and others, hear this: I was tickled to see, at the Ash Wednesday Mass, that our usher was wearing a grey hoodie. Catholics are actually mighty casual about dress code at Mass. We really do think our relationship with God is 100% private and personal, and that God judges our hearts and not our clothes. God did not say that men may not cover their heads at Mass. And it is strictly forbidden nonetheless. The priest should have said something, even if nobody else did. This is forbidden. But then....I used to attend Mass when it was sung in Latin.

A friend of mine's son's coach asked him, many years ago now, if the son was being disrespectful or being funny when he called the coach "Sir." My friend said no. He said his son has three choices. "Sir." "Coach." Or "Mr. Anderson."

Frankly, I am probably set to leave this world at about the right time. Not sure I want to see much more of the deterioration of respect and manners.

When I was in Texas, the only building where everyone took off their hat was The Alamo.

Only time I ever saw a Texas DPS officer without a hat was there. Once, at the Astrodome, a guy failed to remove his hat for the National Anthem, the start of it anyway. He was helped to remove his hat shortly after the song started.

For those of us in our 60's and 70's we were raised differently ( generally speaking ) than many that followed . Today there are so many booger eating knuckle draggers everywhere. All they care about is themselves. Doesn't matter if they are male or female.

Simple example: I was taught to hold the door open for whoever is behind me . It is rare anymore for a man or woman to say thank you .When they don't I loudly say you are welcome, that usually gets a $hit faced look . There are millions of examples of self absorbed dweebs , just look around . It may even be you or a loved one . Every family has them .

I go to a diocesan parish w/o order priests. So pretty laid back. Most people signal touchdown at certain points of the liturgy of the Eucharist. If you know then you know.

Me, I keep my hands and arms down by my side and certainly don't hold hands during the Our Father. And believe that drums, electric guitars and tambourines are the Devil's play things. Green font but half heartedly serious.



I met my wife in 1987. Her family is from Goliad, a very small town an hour and half southeast from San Antonio, where Santa Anna massacred a bunch of people on his march to the Alamo.

Her grandfather was an old time guy born in the very early 1900's. First time I ever went into his house I had on baseball hat. That lasted a second before someone told me to remove it and explained the etiquette (that still exists today in many places, just not cities). Most real cowboys take off their hats when greeting women especially in smaller towns. And you will still see them take off hats in restaurants and indoors, rodeos being the exception (a good example of this on Yellowstone when Jimmy is working at 6666 Ranch)

I am not Catholic but have attended events at a Catholic Church and did my best to be as respectful as I possibly could (including dressing appropriately). I would not dream of going to any church without a suit (even a church where they dress casually). I would also never wear a hat in a building (much less a church) and certainly not at the table anywhere. Even McDonalds. I would consider doing so considerably disrespectful to the group and institution to do so. It is one thing to be poor and dress as beat you can afford, but anyone can remove their hat. I would never shame my parents/family by doing so. I hope my kids and grandkids never shame me by doing something like that. If so, I will know the that I was not the father I tried to be.

When we would come in from harvesting, and have lunch, we were expected to leave the boots outside and scrub your face and back of the neck in the patio sink. Then you were to leave your hat on the wall. If you failed to do any of this, you were in for an ass inside-outectomy. So I take my hat off indoors without fail.

I was taught these basic manners and I’m 50. I’ve taught my sons these manners, even the hat thing when they’re in someone else’s home or a restaurant. Why I taught them the hat thing? I have no idea.

Why do you think it is so disrespectful? I mean, what’s the origin?

Tradition. Supposedly relates to medieval knights removing their helmets entering a building as a signal of friendly intent. The military also retains headgear inside when under arms.

Wearing a large hat like a cowboy hat or one of the stove top hats like in Lincoln's era would spread road dust or block other's view. Ever been to a sports event and sat behind a fellow with a 20-gallon hat?

The main thing to me is that everyone knows it is good etiquette to remove the hat...so not doing so is essentially giving everyone in the establishment the finger.

Hat indoors? Never ever ever. I'd fear a bolt of lightening would come down and get me.

Or Mr Rowland from Hadlow Preparatory School would **** me ** *** ****

I'm a daily hat wearer and hat etiquette can be complicated. (I have a "Winston Churchill" sized collection :cool:)

Note: Non of this applies to women!

Generally if you're in a private area hat's should not be worn but if you're in a public area they can be.

For instance: The train station - Hats are OK... In someones home - Nope.
In the foyer of a building or a doctors waiting area - Again hats are OK.
- But you should remove your hat once you enter someones area/office or the doctors office.

A church is considered a "private" area so hats on when out side but as soon as you cross the threshold hat's should always be removed.

Outdoor Funerals/Graveyard: Hats are OK but they should be removed during the prayers and when the coffin is being lowered.

We have been in this slow decline for quite some time. It isn't just the hat, it is manners proper etiquette and civility, being polite all around, table manners, holding the door for a lady, etc. But it goes both ways, women aren't the same either.

I personally began to notice it about eighteen years ago while trying to teach my daughters manners. Not too many years back I took heat from many of the same people posting on this thread. I don't recall exactly the thread, but I posted about teaching my daughters proper table manners the need. I got answers like does it matter, bigger issues in the world, etc.

Sadly, yes, I think there was an unwritten memo sent around. I saw it and we can see in the school system where a lot of the problems take place. Teachers are no longer referred to as Mr. or Mrs. Jones it is Ms. Kim or Mr. Bob, test scores are rounded down to bring those failing on par with those doing better.

Society in general isn't being round up made better it is being rounded down. Bad behavior, criminal behavior is being accepted. The thug life is not only acceptable it is welcomed and promoted.

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Why does it matter what the origin is?

I do the same, almost always getting a thank you for those older than me and often from those that are about my age. As people appear young than me the percentages go down. From that I have concluded that they just weren't taught to say thank you or even hold the door for someone behind them. Certainly, they were not taught taught to hold the door for a lady and let her go first.

So, for me fairness to the younger generation, it is hard for me to get mad at them, if they weren't taught, they don't know. If they don't know, well they don't know and if they don't know that it is polite then how do I get mad at them? All I can do is try and teach those in my circle.

...

At my daughters wedding last April some of the "guests" turned up in standard street cloths. (Jeans and T Shirts)
My ex BIL was there and he looked like he just threw on whatever was in front of him. He was always a lazy prick.

A lot of people just don't care anymore.

It certainly matters to understand the reasons behind various etiquette rules. For me, "I told you so" isn't good enough. Give me a cogent reason and then I may choose to go along.

For example, holding a door open for someone is obviously courteous and thoughtful. Wearing a hat doesn't affect other people.

BTW, I don't wear hats, so it's not a problem for me either way.

I began wearing a cap about the age of 40... I too know Mohs :(.

That said, I was taught "southern manners", like using sir, m'am, holding doors, the whole nine yards and it's ingrained ;)...

I'm a disrespectful SOB too... evidently :D

Maybe you should read everything and understand the question before commenting? This was Upscotts question which is where my question came from. "Why do you think it is so disrespectful? I mean, what’s the origin?"

But I get it. We can see from your answer and answers on just about any subject, anything that is a historic society norm needs to be rebutted.

Why does it matter to understand the reasons? Why do you classify holding a door "courteous and thoughtful" but removing your hat you don't classify as "courteous and thoughtful."?

Couldn't you just as easily state not holding a door "doesn't affect other people." just as much as not removing your hat?

and yes, if you do not wish to remove your hat, hold a door, remove your shoes whether you understand, agree or not you are free to not go along and leave. You would also agree then if you do not "follow along" others should be free to ask you to leave or not attend and you will happily without incident leave or not attend, right?

There is a lot to know.

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There is a big difference between not knowing and doing something intentionally. If you don't know you can be excused. In the OP the young man was asked to remove his hat. He did so begrudgingly and then put it back on, that is being disrespectful.

I reckon ;). I know some folks will get their panties twisted if I wear a cap indoors.... bad manners.

I DGAF...

No tie or jeans in church would have sent you straight to hell when I was a youngin too :D

I think the OP was concerning RCIA: I am assuming the young man is seeking the RCIA of his own volition.

Here: https://www.catholicfaithstore.com/daily-bread/rcia-welcome-catholic-church/

If so, take the f'ing hat off, it is that simple.

Hats indoors, besides what is asked by the church you wish to join, means zero to me. In my part of Maryland ball caps are almost a requirement:cool:

That's an excellent video, thanks. I was taught how/when to wear a hat in the Army.

The most important point was Public vs Private area - If in doubt take it off.

I’m 58 and have been a practicing Catholic all my years. The RCIA director and the Priest let everyone down by not insisting on some level of dress code - esp. that hat. And they let that young man down as well, for not making the standards/decorum clear to him.

Re my own attire, I once heard it said that if you dress better for a night out than you do for church, you’re doing it wrong!

See, that’s a good explanation. Thanks Fint.