Ethical question

[drcoastline]

If he made the deal through deception by not disclosing his intention and using his illness to manipulate you, well that was unethical to me. He was willing to swindle you out of your money and work to his grandkids benefit and to you kids detriment.

You would be nice heling to build him another. But I wouldn't lose sleep over that either.

[BK911]

Wow, hard to believe you guys all agree on something!
And it is what I wanted to hear, so thank y'all very much!

I have offered several times for him to borrow it.
He declined.
I even offered for him to rent it.
He declined that also.

Still not sure what I will do but definitely appreciate the input.

[javadog]

If he doesn’t even want to borrow it, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over telling him no.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by javadog

If he doesn’t even want to borrow it, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over telling him no.

There it is.

[Tobra]

You know what to do.



You are just too good a guy to feel comfortable with doing it.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by BK911

Wow, hard to believe you guys all agree on something!
And it is what I wanted to hear, so thank y'all very much!

I have offered several times for him to borrow it.
He declined.
I even offered for him to rent it.
He declined that also.

Still not sure what I will do but definitely appreciate the input.

how about this? If you do sell it we'll all mock you mercilessly!

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by masraum

Yeah, that last line of the first paragraph does state that he wanted to drive it to/from work, and now he wants it for something different, so he changed the terms. I think you can back out comfortably.

Still, it could be that his plans changed because his situation has changed so radically. And you could still give the guy a lot of joy. So it's up to you what you want to do.

I agree, that the kid's probably going to thrash/wreck the car, and that's if he even wants it. Some kids would love a classic like that and some kids would hate it.

Years ago (~1990), my parents bought a 74 bug convertible that had been 90% restored, new top, new paint, new wheels, new interior, new stereo, etc... A guy had been fixing it up for his daughter. Turns out she didn't want old, she wanted something like a rabbit convertible, so the guy sold it.

The illness is not the issue here. It's irrelevant.

The issue is whether there was ever a promise conditioned on the use for himself, or whether the Buyer can use the car for whatever, including give it away.

I think there clearly was an understanding offered by the Buyer that the use was for himself in his last dying days. Period. Now that understanding is being violated, the deal is off.

[A930Rocket]

You’re too nice. You’ve bent over backwards to accommodate him and he deceived you whether intentionally or not.

No sale.

[mistertate]

That would annoy the crap out of me if someone bugged me for years about buying my car. Go find your own car! It’s not like it takes a genius to find or restore a beetle. Maybe it was flattering at first but the guilt trip is no fun

[sc_rufctr]

To me this is not an ethical question.

Yes the guy has cancer and that's sad but why is that now your responsibility?
Or, him having cancer should not cost you any money.

And were is his family in all of this? Doesn't he have a brother or someone else that can help him out?

If I was the one with cancer I wouldn't be trying to take advantage of a stranger in my last days.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by BK911

Wow, hard to believe you guys all agree on something!
And it is what I wanted to hear, so thank y'all very much!

I have offered several times for him to borrow it.
He declined.
I even offered for him to rent it.
He declined that also.

Still not sure what I will do but definitely appreciate the input.

From the sound of it, the longer you take to decide, the less likely it is you’ll need to.

Time is not on his side.

You could go to the grandkid and make a deal that he sell the car back to you after gramps passes, which sounds imminent. Gramps is happy, you’re happy and the kid might learn something.

[Bill Douglas]

Sadly the guy has cancer - not your fault. He's got enough on his plate without buying an old (but tidy) car and needing to understand it and maintain/fix it.

Stay out of it. It will end in tears.

Or offer to drive him around and look at ones that are actually for sale.

[aigel]

You will not be lying if you say you do not think a bug is a good idea for any 16 yo. And since he doesn't want to drive it bad enough to rent / borrow it from you, that's the end of it right there. Sad story, if he was just interested in the experience of the car, it would not be too late to ask you for some rides, get away a little, maybe chat along the way or go to some of his favorite spots.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

From the sound of it, the longer you take to decide, the less likely it is you’ll need to.

Time is not on his side.

You could go to the grandkid and make a deal that he sell the car back to you after gramps passes, which sounds imminent. Gramps is happy, you’re happy and the kid might learn something.

That deal would have about a snowball's chance in hell of being enforced. Horrible idea.

Do not sell your car. As someone else stated, you are going to feel at least partially bad about any outcome of this dilemma, (though you shouldn't), so keep your car. You will feel far worse if you sell it under duress. I'm bothered by the fact that you continually dropped the price below what you think it's worth due to someone pestering or guilting you. That is a classic manipulation tactic and is used in many types of financial transactions.

Lastly, I took my drivers test in my mom's 1974 Super Beetle in 1975, when I was 16. I also drove it and other VW bugs for years afterwards, in between other cars. Others are correct in pointing out the safety delta between it and even cars from 25 or 30 years ago. Horrible choice for a new driver in 2022.

[Superman]

I understand how a very principled man would agonize over this. I might have the same agony, particularly after so many discussions about a sale had transpired over so long.

But I also think the facts, which are the terms you had discussed, have changed and frankly I see all those discussions as a sort of badgering to score a nice example of an iconic care for less than market price. And then there is the question of whether a teenaged boy should be barnstorming around in an old Beetle. The answer to that question is "No."

You worry about what is the right thing to do, and the right thing is to not sell the car.

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by BK911

I have a pretty nice '74 bug.
Almost everything is new or rebuilt.
Dude at work has been trying to buy it for the past several years but we could never come to terms, mainly because I do not want to sell it.
Last year he was diagnosed with cancer.
I told him I would sell the bug for what I had into it, and eat all my labor.
He could not afford that either, so discussions ended.
Now he has been in chemo and just looks horrible.
I agreed to sell him the car at a pretty big loss, because he want to drive it to/from work.
When I went over to talk to him in person, I was devastated at how bad he looks.
And quite frankly I have doubts he could work the clutch and manual steering.
Come to find out, he doesnt want the car for him, he wants to give it to his 16yo grandkid.
When I agreed to take the HUGE loss on the car, it was so he could drive the car and reminisce his high school days.
Not so he could get a good deal on a nice car for his grandkid!
I want the car for my kids!

For the money he is offering, I can find him another bug and I will fix it up and go through it.

Sound reasonable?
Or do I just eat it and move on?

I do not know how much free time you have. If you have the time, offer to help the grandkid buy a VW, then offer to have him help you fix it up, even tell the friend he is welcome to join in as his health and energy permits.

The kid will learn along the way and appreciate the car much more as it is something he built up. The grandfather, if he can join in will create an amazing memory with the grandkid that will be remembered long after he is gone and make that car much more special.

[Jims5543]

I have another option. If you really want to sell at a loss, sell the car to me cheap and tell them it was stolen.

[BK911]

Dude was in the hospital for a while with an infection.
When he came back to work i found myself avoiding him.
Finally had the courage to confront him.
Told him I cannot sell mine.
But I will find him one and go through it with him and his grand kids.
He looked sad but agreed.
After a couple days of looking, I was able to convince him to get a new bug.
Cheaper, newer, better heat, ac, auto and power steering.
Plus his wifey can drive it.
So search is full speed ahead.
And we are still friends!
Really happy and relieved.

And happy Easter to all!!!

[Chocaholic]

Kudos. You took a tricky situation and found the narrow path to mutual agreement. Congrats.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Kudos. You took a tricky situation and found the narrow path to mutual agreement. Congrats.

Yes. Nicely done and the better solution. Keep us posted on any purchase!