Ethical question

[BK911]

I have a pretty nice '74 bug.
Almost everything is new or rebuilt.
Dude at work has been trying to buy it for the past several years but we could never come to terms, mainly because I do not want to sell it.
Last year he was diagnosed with cancer.
I told him I would sell the bug for what I had into it, and eat all my labor.
He could not afford that either, so discussions ended.
Now he has been in chemo and just looks horrible.
I agreed to sell him the car at a pretty big loss, because he want to drive it to/from work.
When I went over to talk to him in person, I was devastated at how bad he looks.
And quite frankly I have doubts he could work the clutch and manual steering.
Come to find out, he doesnt want the car for him, he wants to give it to his 16yo grandkid.
When I agreed to take the HUGE loss on the car, it was so he could drive the car and reminisce his high school days.
Not so he could get a good deal on a nice car for his grandkid!
I want the car for my kids!

For the money he is offering, I can find him another bug and I will fix it up and go through it.

Sound reasonable?
Or do I just eat it and move on?

[masraum]

Hmm, yeah, that's tough. I suppose it would depend upon how the discussions went, if there was a handshake or understood agreement, or just casual conversation.

Based on the info in your post, it sounds like there was an agreement including price and some assumptions made, I kind of feel like you probably just need to eat it and move on.

It sounds like you agreed to sell him the car for a particular price, and I'm assuming details about who would drive it and why were not made.

Did he misrepresent things or did the discussion/agreement include some detail about how/who/why? Or did you just make assumptions? If things were misrepresented or discussed that are now turning out to not be true, then to me the side doing the misrepresenting has already broken the agreement. If you made assumptions that are now turning out to be incorrect, that's kind of on you.

It sucks, but I'd look at it as banking some karma. Making a guy in that kind of shape happy, and following through on something that you agreed to despite it not really being what you want to do, is a good thing to do and also the right thing to do. So while it will sting, you can feel good about doing the right thing and making the guy happy.

[70SATMan]

He wasn't honest with you regardless of his diagnosis with the BigC.

Not selling it to him wouldn't cause me any loss of sleep.

[OldSpool87]

What you do for his grandkid you do for him. That’s one way to think of it. That said, it’s a tough one. I would not feel morally bankrupt for not moving forward. Your idea about finding another car to fix up is very thoughtful. You could even have the grandkid involved in selection or helping if you chooses to make it an experience. I think what it boils down to is that there’s a guy with numbered days trying to get joy out of being a great grandpa. The actual car is really not that important.

[dad911]

It's a shame you can't find the title, and found a puddle of brake fluid on the garage floor......


If he's misleaded you, you have nothing in writing, and no money has exchanged hands, I don't think you have a deal.

As I was typing, some good relies above mine. I'l add this:

I'd offer to help his grandson learn about and find a safe reliable car for a teenager when the time comes. That would not include a 70's bug, imho.

[Rapewta]

He was probably planning on driving the Bug but really can't anymore so like he was probably thinking... "I will drive it until I can't anymore and will it to my grandchild."
That is my opinion. So sell it to him. I think he didn't lie to you from the first time he asked you to sell it to him.

[asphaltgambler]

BK911, my view of the situation is not really of a morale one, but rather kindness. In this case, I don't see the purpose of your sacrifice for the 3rd party; 16 year old. The bug may have been your friends dream to own and drive initially, but once his condition became terminal, he envisioned passing his dream onto his son / daughter. Which by the way you have no way of knowing if they really have a desire to own and drive a classic car. If so it could be fleeting at that age.

[Chocaholic]

I tend to agree with OldSpool. Selling him the car so he can give it to his grandson may be a new iteration based on his decline. I suspect in his last days he would take joy in giving the car to the lad. And it would be very meaningful in both directions.

Bottom line, his intent is noble even if you didn’t know his plans. You would be doing a great mitzvah (look it up) by following through. Alternately, your proposal is equally valuable. Why not discuss it with your friend to see which path he would prefer?

[wilnj]

My concern would be would the grandson appreciate all the work that went into it? If he’s just into VWs then he may be better served with a reliable baseline for him to grow his hobby on.

I’d hate to know that a very good sample was not cared for and treated as disposable if the interest doesn’t take.

I think your offer of a different car at cost is very generous.

[BK911]

Thanks guys.
I have actually been loosing sleep over this!
I had thought of purchasing a car and having him and his grandson over to go through the brakes and stuff.
A chat is in order.

[GH85Carrera]

A 74 Bug is not a good car for a kid of today to use as a daily driver. They are not a particularly safe vehicle, and he will almost surly have a wreck like most every teenager first time driver.

He was not really honest about his intentions. I would just tell him your own grandkids want the car.

[KFC911]

I had a reply typed, then deleted it. Read your last post ... yep, go chat with him...

Your "ethics" are commendable btw

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by BK911

I have a pretty nice '74 bug.
Almost everything is new or rebuilt.
Dude at work has been trying to buy it for the past several years but we could never come to terms, mainly because I do not want to sell it.
Last year he was diagnosed with cancer.
I told him I would sell the bug for what I had into it, and eat all my labor.
He could not afford that either, so discussions ended.
Now he has been in chemo and just looks horrible.
I agreed to sell him the car at a pretty big loss, because he want to drive it to/from work.



Come to find out, he doesnt want the car for him, he wants to give it to his 16yo grandkid.
When I agreed to take the HUGE loss on the car, it was so he could drive the car and reminisce his high school days.
Not so he could get a good deal on a nice car for his grandkid!
I want the car for my kids!

These are almost two different paragraphs.

!. He wants the car for himself, so he can drive it "to and from work";
2. Paragraph 2 - he wants if for his grand kid.

To me, you agreed to #1, not #2.

I'd say forget it, he changed the deal.

So, I'm sorry but deal is off.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by BK911

I have a pretty nice '74 bug.
Almost everything is new or rebuilt.
Dude at work has been trying to buy it for the past several years but we could never come to terms, mainly because I do not want to sell it.
Last year he was diagnosed with cancer.
I told him I would sell the bug for what I had into it, and eat all my labor.
He could not afford that either, so discussions ended.
Now he has been in chemo and just looks horrible.
I agreed to sell him the car at a pretty big loss, because he want to drive it to/from work.
When I went over to talk to him in person, I was devastated at how bad he looks.
And quite frankly I have doubts he could work the clutch and manual steering.
Come to find out, he doesnt want the car for him, he wants to give it to his 16yo grandkid.
When I agreed to take the HUGE loss on the car, it was so he could drive the car and reminisce his high school days.
Not so he could get a good deal on a nice car for his grandkid!
I want the car for my kids!

For the money he is offering, I can find him another bug and I will fix it up and go through it.

Sound reasonable?
Or do I just eat it and move on?

If discussions ended, you have no obligations to sell now. Especially since prices have likely gone up.

If it were me, I would consider just avoiding the issue in hopes it would go away...or offer to help his grandson find/fix a less expensive example to learn on.

Not to be in his business, but if he cannot afford it and has cancer, he/his family could likely better use the money elsewhere. I knew a woman in her 30s that was ill. She did not have much money but began almost addictively spending every penny she got on expensive gifts for nieces/nephews. She deteriorated quickly and became so weak that she could no longer work, but was receiving some sort of disability/workers comp. After she died, we found out second-hand that she had stopped eating and had no money or food in her house.

[craigster59]

I would email him and his grandson a link to The Samba, and suggest they also keep their eye out on the classifieds. Offer your expertise on reviewing any car that they are thinking of purchasing and technical help with any repairs.

Beyond that I think that would be the the extent of your responsibility.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by BK911

......Dude at work has been trying to buy it for the past several years......he wants to give it to his 16yo grandkid

He had not been wanting to give it to his 11-12-13? yr old grandkid for the last several years.

He wanted it for himself.

Those are the conditions you made a deal under, a deal you didn't want to make to begin with.

You guilt trip'd yourself into it so that is on you.

You will feel bad about this no matter which way you decide to go.

Keep the car.

And as noted, it's not an appropriate vehicle for a first time driver.

It's not guaranteed but highly probable you'll bump into the kid in a couple of years and the car will be trashed.

Then you're gonna feel bad all over again.

It's all downside for you, pick the choice that sucks the least for you.

You owe no one anything.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by fintstone

... if he cannot afford it and has cancer, he/his family could likely better use the money elsewhere.

Fint and I rarely see eye to eye but spot on.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

A 74 Bug is not a good car for a kid of today to use as a daily driver. They are not a particularly safe vehicle, and he will almost surly have a wreck like most every teenager first time driver. ...

I agree with this. I wrecked my first car. It was a cheap clunker so it was totaled (although not much damage). I also wrecked and my wife's first VW (1966). It was not my fault), but the Crown Vic that hit me was barely damage and my car was crushed (and I ended up broken in the hospital). I also wrecked my first 911 (1974) and it was totaled (again not my fault). The high school kid in the VW that hit me ended up in the hospital.

I had bought the first '74 911 for my daughter to drive, but she just did not have the driving skill in traffic and was so distracted trying to use the clutch that I gave her our old Toyota 4Runnner instead and took the 911 myself. She liked it a lot better and learned to drive very well before she switched back to a manual. Based on that experience, I would get a 16-year-old a disposable automatic with better brakes and airbags. When they master that, maybe help them get something else.

[matthewb0051]

Any 'deal' over $500 must be in writing. So I'd say you have every right in the world to not sell since you really never had a contract, unless you were selling for $499.

Selling to him when he wanted it and when you felt bad about his medical condition is one thing and commendable on your part.

The fact that he wants to buy it at a great discount just to give to his grandkid feels like a whole other deal that was never part of the conversation regardless of a written contract and the $500 rule.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

A 74 Bug is not a good car for a kid of today to use as a daily driver. They are not a particularly safe vehicle, and he will almost surly have a wreck like most every teenager first time driver.

This- Tell him time have changed. The world done grew up into a SUV world, and a VW bug is simply not safe as a daily driver on today's roads for anyone, let alone an inexperienced driver. Tell him you would be happy to help him find a good safe car for his grandkid.

This car is at an age where it really needs all brake lines and all fuel lines replaced. Even if you've done it, don't tell him you did. I had a friend who lost his bug brakes back in college- and that was over 30 years ago.

Just say no for the kid's safety.