Input on engineering schools, VT, ASU, FIT, Rose

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

being a manager of a technical advancement program, or worse yet, a program requiring invention, is even harder. when you find a good one, oh boy is it good.

I wrote "listen" a lot in an earlier post. Believe it or not I am very good at that, listening to the engineers and figuring out the next steps, especially in new programs...the hardest part about new and inventive technologies is the acceptance curve, oddly enough in both engineering and management.

Then some has to sell it or we are all out of work.

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

ive been contemplating a move to management instead of research like i do now. i fortunately work for a company that has a VP level technical job, so there is no point at which id be forced into a management job. i could stay technical my entire career. but ultimately my frustration with poor management has lead me to be VERY good at managing up, and i see programs fail for so many reasons that arnt engineering or technical. most programs fail because of human problems, not technical ones. and so that has lead my brain to spending more and more time on humans rather than machines.

Of course...the human condition is always at the nexus of success or failure of all projects: The Graveyard of Great Ideas depends on ignoring the human element in all endeavors.

One bit of advice if you move into management, well, two: Learn the basics, the tools you will need to manage, and listen, never squash: Bad news never smells better with age.

Handling bad news will be your job.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

.... a masters isnt super important either....(but)....the track from engineering into management is well documented....and.... by and large i think engineers make poor managers. ....(and)... MBAs in my experience are nonsense. worth a lot of money, but not because you are any better at business than anyone else.....

Sometimes I think your perspective is right on target. Like your suggestion to add a business master's to an engineering BS. And then at other times you seem to be thinking with a different brain. There are more reasons to study business than just bragging rights or a piece of paper. Someone said, and perhaps you, that business is its own specialty and this is true.

And someone bemoaned the tendency for employers to make managers out of engineers, and this thinking is common. For example, health care companies seem often to imagine that only doctors can administer an organization that employs doctors. That's not far from imagining that business analysts should advise patients on health care matters.

All in all, I agree that an MBA atop an engineering BS is a smart plan. There were several engineering graduates in my MBA program.

[Superman]

I can validate the importance of listening. Some people listen with the goal of responding. Others listen with the goal of understanding.

[astrochex]

Originally Posted by Superman

Sometimes I think your perspective is right on target. Like your suggestion to add a business master's to an engineering BS. And then at other times you seem to be thinking with a different brain. There are more reasons to study business than just bragging rights or a piece of paper. Someone said, and perhaps you, that business is its own specialty and this is true.

And someone bemoaned the tendency for employers to make managers out of engineers, and this thinking is common. For example, health care companies seem often to imagine that only doctors can administer an organization that employs doctors. That's not far from imagining that business analysts should advise patients on health care matters.

All in all, I agree that an MBA atop an engineering BS is a smart plan. There were several engineering graduates in my MBA program.

You do it right when you get the job with the BS, then earn the MBA with the financial assistance of your employer. Its probably an option available with most if not all aerospace companies.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Superman

Sometimes I think your perspective is right on target. Like your suggestion to add a business master's to an engineering BS. And then at other times you seem to be thinking with a different brain. There are more reasons to study business than just bragging rights or a piece of paper. Someone said, and perhaps you, that business is its own specialty and this is true.

And someone bemoaned the tendency for employers to make managers out of engineers, and this thinking is common. For example, health care companies seem often to imagine that only doctors can administer an organization that employs doctors. That's not far from imagining that business analysts should advise patients on health care matters.

All in all, I agree that an MBA atop an engineering BS is a smart plan. There were several engineering graduates in my MBA program.

my point was that MBAs in my experience seem to be no better at business than anyone else.

in fact, by and large, MBAs in my experience are fantastic at destroying businesses. and often they justify it with "i have an MBA, you don't"

my personal take is that MBAs often misunderstand what value means to the customer and why they want it. tend to treat it the same on everything and fail to understand that each market is inherently different, with small details that vastly effect outcomes. YMMV.

[aschen]

With an MBA and 5$ + tip you can buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I have one from a highly regarded school, can't say I learned much you couldn't pick up on youtube + a couple decent books. I am glad the company footed the bill on that degree though I enjoyed the journey.

Post graduate engineering degrees do have and do add value in many cases at least in the aggregate sense. I have hired and directly supervised dozens (maybe triple digits) of engineers from a wide variety of programs and levels from BS to Post graduate PHD types.

For a fundamentals heavy position I'll go with MS engineer 9 times out of 10 if possible. There are always exceptions of course. I think it is very difficult for Phd to venture outside their field of specialty, sorta get type cast by your education. I think there is likely a postitive NPV for time spent on MS but probably not for Phd, at least in the non tech sector. My graduate advisor used to always say her students make more than her in their first year out. Of course she got summers off and worked bankers hours.

Of course these are all generalities, tons of people who never finished high school who have next level fundamental understanding, and plenty of Phds that are really pragmatists at heart.

[beatnavy]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

my point was that MBAs in my experience seem to be no better at business than anyone else.

in fact, by and large, MBAs in my experience are fantastic at destroying businesses. and often they justify it with "i have an MBA, you don't"

my personal take is that MBAs often misunderstand what value means to the customer and why they want it. tend to treat it the same on everything and fail to understand that each market is inherently different, with small details that vastly effect outcomes. YMMV.

Me thinks you're generalizing quite a bit. You've really personally seen lots of businesses destroyed by MBA's? To me that sounds more like a cliche than reality. There's a reason businesses seek them out.

It's like any other discipline -- if you show up somewhere and think your degree, and only your degree, makes you foolproof or smarter than everyone else then you are likely to fail.

I have an MBA, thought it was highly useful to my line of work, and made me a better businessperson and consultant. I personally would recommend doing an MBA after a couple of years actually working, however.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by beatnavy

Me thinks you're generalizing quite a bit. You've really personally seen lots of businesses destroyed by MBA's? To me that sounds more like a cliche than reality. There's a reason businesses seek them out.

It's like any other discipline -- if you show up somewhere and think your degree, and only your degree, makes you foolproof or smarter than everyone else then you are likely to fail.

I have an MBA, thought it was highly useful to my line of work, and made me a better businessperson and consultant. I personally would recommend doing an MBA after a couple of years actually working, however.

i have seen us ruin some pretty mind blowing opportunities (100 million+ stuff) and product lines because of MBA's not understanding what they are doing and why we did what we did.

goes to the point made about listening before.

[beatnavy]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

i have seen us ruin some pretty mind blowing opportunities (100 million+ stuff) and product lines because of MBA's not understanding what they are doing and why we did what we did.

goes to the point made about listening before.

Seems like that's true in any profession, no?

I guess I hope the next time I'm in surgery my doctor didn't go to medical school, because, you know, all the surgeons that screw up went to medical school.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by beatnavy

Seems like that's true in any profession, no?

I guess I hope the next time I'm in surgery my doctor didn't go to medical school, because, you know, all the surgeons that screw up went to medical school.

this isnt a counter point.

[MBAtarga]

I offer this link as another differing opinion as to the "usefulness" of an MBA. I know the counter arguments,etc. and there are always outliers- but collectively, the evidence shows an MBA is respected and rewarded in the job marketplace. The article has more information that what I pasted below

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/applying/articles/2018-03-21/mbas-offer-more-advantages-than-undergrad-business-majors

1. A higher earning potential: An MBA usually boosts career prospects and leads to a higher salary, experts say.

"In terms of immediate-year compensation offer rates, one can expect as much as a 20 percent increase – $10,000 to $15,000 – in entry salary over an undergraduate degree in business, but this will vary by many factors," including area of business study and geographic location, said RT Good, dean of College of Business and Management at Lynn University in Florida, via email.

Some survey data, he says, report an even higher bump in pay for an MBA.

According to a 2018 report by the National Association of College and Employers, there's more than a 38 percent difference between the projected entry-level salary for someone with a bachelor's in business – $56,720 – and the starting salary for an MBA graduate – $78,332.

"This compensation rate increase compounds with each additional year, and studies indicate that an MBA degree can accelerate the rate of increases so that within five years, graduates might expect an 80 percent increase over their post-MBA entry compensation rate," Good said.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by MBAtarga

I offer this link as another differing opinion as to the "usefulness" of an MBA. I know the counter arguments,etc. and there are always outliers- but collectively, the evidence shows an MBA is respected and rewarded in the job marketplace. The article has more information that what I pasted below

i never said it wasnt rewarded in the job market. in fact i explicitly said it was.

i said having an MBA does not seem to correlate with being good at business.

[Mahler9th]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thayer_School_of_Engineering

[berettafan]

I want to confess something here. I’ve argued and been rude with a couple of you guys in the past and you are setting that aside to offer help and advice.

Just wanted to say I recognize it and feel humbled. You have my sincere thanks and appreciation both for your help and the unintentional lesson on being a better human.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

i have seen us ruin some pretty mind blowing opportunities (100 million+ stuff) and product lines because of MBA's not understanding what they are doing and why we did what we did.

goes to the point made about listening before.

...or maybe they did and you didn't understand business enough to recognize why their decisions were better than yours. Maybe they were listening and you simply failed to address areas they were concerned about or understand why they were concerned.

I agree with those that suggest engineers go on to grad school on their employer's dime. I suggest this to all engineers that I mentor. Some prefer an engineering MS and some business (MBA) depending on their interests/goals. Some do both. Like many engineers, my job became less technical and more managerial over time and the concepts learned in the MBA courses came in very helpful. It is much easier to sell the "money guys" on initiatives/programs if you can speak their language.

I also recommend that engineers get their PE as soon as possible (while school is still fresh as it gets hard later) ...even if their current career path does not seem to require one. Your path may change.

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by 944 S2

Unless he’s been accepted to MIT or Harvard it doesn't matter much where he goes to school as long as he graduates with decent (above 3.0) GPA. I hired lots of Mechanical engineers, where they graduated from didn’t matter. Good grades and a good interview is enough. All that said it would depend on where he sees himself working. My two cents worth.

I feel the same way. Mit people have had their souls crushed and reformed, excellent ability to deliver. Everyone i know who went their has ptsd from it, but its the only school i care about on a resume. Never had anything bug rock star from mit.

Otherwise i think every school is thesame, its up to the kid to push hard. .

[berettafan]

Wanted to stop back here and update on our journey.

The boy has opted for VT. It is the most expensive (ugh) option but i think it carries the best likelihood of him finding his place in the career spectrum and also very importantly the student body. I think it fits his personality and although it may not be as direct a line to an aerospace career as FIT or Embry I do think it will provide good job and internship options if he does his part. At 17yrs old he's been told 'you're math smart, be an engineer' and thus far enjoyed his HS engineering classes but you never know what might happen when **** gets real at the college level. I'd hate for him to lose interest but feel like he's got to pursue it if he were at FIT or Embry Riddle.

The boy has become a big F1 fan and is going to be applying to the Formula SAE team at school. As a car dad who had long ago accepted that his son wasn't a car guy i could not be more excited. Maybe those trips to the Baltimore GP and NJMP when he was little had some impact after all!

HUGE thanks to all who participated in this thread and reached out via PM with contacts in the industry. I owe everyone in here a debt of gratitude so please, if you are ever on the Md shore, hit me up for a good meal and drinks.

[beatnavy]

Congratulations to the new Hokie!

My youngest daughter graduated VT (Finance) in December and one of her good friends (and future roommate) just graduated this month from the engineering school there. He is also a huge F1 fan and was on their engineering team for that. Unfortunately they failed the last inspection and couldn’t run. He said it was intense.

[Nickshu]

Good choice. We did engineering school visits all over the country during my son's past year (junior year). Virginia Tech is his #1 choice. We hit all the major choices and some smaller schools too. Auburn is his #2.

While we were at VT we saw the Formula SAE lab. Pretty cool.

[berettafan]

Rob the student at Embry who gave us the tour said Formula SAE was very demanding as well. Must've been a heart breaker to not get to run the car!

Nick we were shocked at how competitive admissions are in general. Feel very fortunate to have gotten in at VT. Supposedly a fairly high admission rate but when my son and wife attended Hokie day (open house for admitted students) the quoted admission totals vs applicants were much smaller.