College debt and how to reduce cost

[PorscheGAL]

As someone who just finished an ADN program I think I can chime in on the Nurse stuff.

Here in South Carolina, you can be hired without a BSN.

Starting pay is $28/hr with $1/hr more if you have a BSN.

To get my ADN I took almost enough credit hours for a Bachelors. One more year of classes and a Bachelors is mine. My long term plans did not include working for a hospital as a nurse so I am currently working on my Bachelors in Business Management not Nursing.

[PorscheGAL]

Why do we have nursing shortages?

Average nursing class starts with 400 students. 60-80 graduate. That is all programs, ADN and BSN.

Nurses have a saying "eating the young" and nursing schools are a perfect example of old school nurses making life difficult for the sake of being difficult. I saw people who were brilliant with patients and couldn't pass the tests from the classes. Teachers usually have been out of the nursing for years. They use outdated medical information and do not take kindly to you pointing it out.

An example is: I work for a medical device company that treats epilepsy. As we were learning about epilepsy, they taught this technology that I see working everyday was experimental. I was reprimanded for pointing out its been used since 1997, hardly experimental.

I could share stories from other nursing schools that are similar.

Tests in Nursing school are unlike any other: Most questions all the answers are technically correct. You must pick the one that is "most correct."

[cabmandone]

Stephanie,
Thanks for chiming in! I was really hoping when the conversation turned to nursing that you'd comment!

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I was going to carry over some of the conversation from the "dark side" in a thread I started that went sideways in a good way but Seahawk pooched it!

Z-man mentioned student loan forgiveness in my thread. From there I said that I felt part of the problem is the mandatory coursework that a college requires to make a "well rounded student". I feel that we could reduce student debt simply by giving the student more choice in the coursework. Colleges, in my opinion, should exist to prepare a person for the work in their degree field.

A few felt that the mandatory liberal arts classes were beneficial to their development as a person. I don't disagree with things like music, art, poetry, history and other subjects being part of an education. I just feel that it shouldn't be mandatory that a person be strapped with college debt if those subjects aren't something they are really interested in. My point was that it should be up to the student to determine if those things are important enough for them to pay for those classes or if they'd rather apply the money for those classes towards degree specific classes.

From my own experience, I enjoy art, music of all genres (and I do mean all), poetry, history and many other things without ever attending college to gain an appreciation for them. They were things I found interesting. They are things that I tried to introduce my kids to as well. I think that's partly why my oldest daughter said she would have rather had the money for certain required classes go towards her degree specific coursework.

So what do you guys say? Should students be required to take classwork they aren't necessarily interested in? Keep in mind that kids today are exposed to more things through the internet so they probably have a better feel for what they like or don't like.

I would like to point out that if people here in OT could have seen the discussion that took place, you'd find that there can indeed be good discussions over on the dark side.

Here is the trap - you are assuming every kid knows what they want to do entering college. Today most freshman major in "I don't know or I changed my mind".

I wanted to be an engineer from the get go. I hated high school and couldn't wait to get out of college. I had a simple path: my parents had no money to send me to school and loans were out of the question. Not smart enough or athletic enough for scholarship money. My dad gave me $80 for college and told me I'm on my own. Went to a Community college and U of I at Chicago. worked summers and paid my way. Nice story: this was between 1968 and 1972. A long time ago when college was affordable. Northwestern University in Evanston was $2000/yr.

Times change: I had the mind set everyone knew what they wanted to be going into college. I can tell you that is not the majority. And college costs have gone up and up. And some majors take long than the 4 years. One of the reasons is class scheduling - you miss the opportunity and you may need t o wait a semester or too when it is offered again. To me, it is a subtle way of paying more to the college.

I made a commitment to my son undergrad was on his mom and me, Grad school on him. It isn't easy and the way the system is set up - it is expensive.

The best path, IMO, is go to a community college and spend 2 years trying to figure out what is of interest to you and then go beyond. Might take a little longer but this is a marathon, not a sprint. And I am a fan of liberal arts education - there are too many success stories out there.

[berettafan]

My first is headed to college in a couple months. Insanely expensive. But then if he sticks with the current major and manages a good gpa he'll likely earn 80-90k first year out. His debt is gonna be a little more than one year's salary. live cheap for 2 or 3 years and get it knocked out. docs do this for even longer. have been for some time.

Anyways my thinking is if you truly want to reduce college costs you max ANY borrowing for college at $15-20k per year. As in not legal to loan more regardless of the borrowers financial condition. this 'how much can you borrow' approach colleges use for setting tuition is simply a lost cause.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by jcommin

The best path, IMO, is go to a community college and spend 2 years trying to figure out what is of interest to you and then go beyond. Might take a little longer but this is a marathon, not a sprint. And I am a fan of liberal arts education - there are too many success stories out there.

Depending on the young person, I agree. After I was injured in college I tutored at two JC's in the Bay Area, Chabot and Ohlone. They are both now 4 year colleges.

I tutored a mix of athletes and regular students in economics and finance, all basic 101/2 stuff.

They were all excellent and got a lot of mandatory liberal arts class wok completed very cheaply...and most went direct into the University of California system as juniors.

As I wrote in Cab's earlier thread (before I gooned it) I had a professor in econ that recommended we all take a speech class and an acting class: "Learn how to present your thoughts and pretend to care"...words to that effect.

He was right.

BTW, thanks for the insight, Stephanie, on nursing. I had no idea.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by PorscheGAL

Why do we have nursing shortages?

Average nursing class starts with 400 students. 60-80 graduate. That is all programs, ADN and BSN.

I think the reputation of good hourly pay for shift work attracts a fair number of less than exceptional people. People who underestimate the difficulty of the coursework. In lower income somewhat rural areas nursing is a perceived 'out' for people who think they aren't smart enough to do a 4yr college and don't want to be cops.

The perception seems to be if it is taught at a community college then anyone can do it and the dollar store isn't hiring right now so might as well give it a shot.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by jcommin

Here is the trap - you are assuming every kid knows what they want to do entering college. Today most freshman major in "I don't know or I changed my mind".

I wanted to be an engineer from the get go. I hated high school and couldn't wait to get out of college. I had a simple path: my parents had no money to send me to school and loans were out of the question. Not smart enough or athletic enough for scholarship money. My dad gave me $80 for college and told me I'm on my own. Went to a Community college and U of I at Chicago. worked summers and paid my way. Nice story: this was between 1968 and 1972. A long time ago when college was affordable. Northwestern University in Evanston was $2000/yr.

Times change: I had the mind set everyone knew what they wanted to be going into college. I can tell you that is not the majority. And college costs have gone up and up. And some majors take long than the 4 years. One of the reasons is class scheduling - you miss the opportunity and you may need t o wait a semester or too when it is offered again. To me, it is a subtle way of paying more to the college.

I made a commitment to my son undergrad was on his mom and me, Grad school on him. It isn't easy and the way the system is set up - it is expensive.

The best path, IMO, is go to a community college and spend 2 years trying to figure out what is of interest to you and then go beyond. Might take a little longer but this is a marathon, not a sprint. And I am a fan of liberal arts education - there are too many success stories out there.

Not really making that assumption. I know young adults change course in college and often their major changes. This is where I think K-12 needs to improve.

A 17/18 year old person should have some sense of direction. At the H.S my kids attended, they're doing "internships" in their senior year. This wasn't the case six years ago when my oldest graduated. I think the exposure they get is helping kids decide on a major. I know in my youngest daughter's case it seems to have helped as she interned with my SIL, a nurse practitioner, which gave her interest in being NP.

I did the same as you with each of my three kids regarding undergrad. DEFINITELY not easy or cheap. My son opted to transition from college into the workforce so he gets to pocket what's left of his 529 or I suggested he leave it there in case he decides there's something he'd like to take to advance himself in his field of choice. He's planning to attend a class on vinyl wrapping vehicles. I told him that cost is covered! He smiled.

BTW, I like your idea on utilizing community colleges more. It made me think of something my orthopedic surgeon said to me that I found funny/interesting is "no one ever asks me where I went to school or what I scored on my exam". I think that was his way of saying the school doesn't ultimately matter.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by berettafan

My first is headed to college in a couple months. Insanely expensive. But then if he sticks with the current major and manages a good gpa he'll likely earn 80-90k first year out. His debt is gonna be a little more than one year's salary. live cheap for 2 or 3 years and get it knocked out. docs do this for even longer. have been for some time.

Anyways my thinking is if you truly want to reduce college costs you max ANY borrowing for college at $15-20k per year. As in not legal to loan more regardless of the borrowers financial condition. this 'how much can you borrow' approach colleges use for setting tuition is simply a lost cause.

One thing I was unaware of until recently is that student loans can go towards housing. I get that housing is kind of important but it surprised me that a person could use student loans for rent. Seems that might go a small ways in explaining why apartments are so expensive near colleges. It's going on a student loan!

[cabmandone]

BTW, thanks to Seahawk and Berettafan for chiming in on this thread. Both contributed to the earlier thread and I was hoping they would find this thread.

[pavulon]

Originally Posted by look 171

My sister is an RN and charge nurse now for Keck Medical Center here in LA. She may disagree with you on this matter. What matter is the experiences gain in the field that they can or need to read a patient's well being so they can be saved in a certain situation. Code red will make them jump like you have never seen before. No thinking required, its automatic after a few years into the job.

After 31 years of working with RNs, I've seen plenty of automatic jumping. After about 5 minutes, it's not helpful.

[berettafan]

Cab this might be silly but you made my day. Suggesting i contributed to a discussion on something very important...and somewhat in opposition to your own feelings...well dude i'm humbled and grateful. Thank you.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Cab this might be silly but you made my day. Suggesting i contributed to a discussion on something very important...and somewhat in opposition to your own feelings...well dude i'm humbled and grateful. Thank you.

I really liked your comments in the other thread and found them thought provoking. I liked Eric’s, Seahawk’s and even Fint’s contributions as well. It’s funny how the conversation took a right turn from the subject and evolved int a good discussion unrelated to the thread subject.

[berettafan]

and your position grabbed my attention too! it's a real problem and it makes total sense to question the wisdom of excess classes when you're paying the equivalent of a starter home to take them. wish this topic would get more traction in the media and congress.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by PorscheGAL

As someone who just finished an ADN program I think I can chime in on the Nurse stuff.

Here in South Carolina, you can be hired without a BSN.

Starting pay is $28/hr with $1/hr more if you have a BSN.

To get my ADN I took almost enough credit hours for a Bachelors. One more year of classes and a Bachelors is mine. My long term plans did not include working for a hospital as a nurse so I am currently working on my Bachelors in Business Management not Nursing.

My daughter is an RN with a community college degree. Never had a problem finding a job. I don't think she feels deprived for not having taken a course in women's studies..

She's worked in many areas of medicine..ER, obstetrics, surgery, etc. Right now, in her early 50's, she combined her computer skill and understanding of medical terminolgy to work as a consultant, travelling to various USA locations, upgrading hospitals medical records systems. Don't ask me to explain beyond that...most of what she does flies right over my numb skull. But I can say the pay level is VERY good.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Everyone should have to take at least one course, and really should take many, on learning how to analyze issues, think critically and more importantly, how to change an opinion based on a clearly laid out set of facts (this cuts both ways). This could come in many different kinds of classes and course structures and majors from trades to community college to college. Want to call it Problem Solving 101? Sure. Philosophy. OK. Logic and Critical Thinking. Great. An analysis of form and vision in Chekhov's major plays. Why not. Robotics Engineering & AI. Absolutely. Organic Chemistry. Of course. And so on.

Our country has lost the ability to think.

[PorscheGAL]

I'll throw in a couple more observations about college and money:

Many years ago I went to NC State right out of high school. The tuition was not terrible (about $900/semester) and I paid out of pocket myself. All my professors there had written their own textbooks. You would buy the book and resell at the end of the semester. I left after my freshman year (met my husband, who was in the Army, and followed him with a Change in Duty Station to Ft. Benning)

Spent the next 20 or so years being a SAHM. As you all know, as son entered college so did I for nursing. Started at a tech school where the tuition per semester was more than my whole year at NCSU. Now at 4-year state school. I have not had a single prof who has written their own text book. Textbooks now are either loose leaf packs of pages you need a 3-ring binder for or digital. There is no selling back the books. I find the work load more intense now. Lots of what I consider busy work with no redeeming value. I do think the profs are more accessible now. And I do feel like if I needed more help, most would have no problem meeting with me.

Here in SC, during Covid the state started offering free tuition at Tech Schools. No idea how long that will last but that would certainly help with some cost issues. Here in SC, the lottery pays some tuition costs if you went to a SC high school and had good enough grades. Depending on scores you would get $1000 a year or $6500/ year with an additional $3500 if you had a STEM major. So my son has been attending a state engineering program where the lottery has paid $10,000/ year toward tuition. That goes a long way.

But tuition isn't the only cost: the engineering dept charges $1500/semester in fees. No idea what those fees go to and a professor is currently suing under a FOIA to find out where the money is going. I am sure these fees are common everywhere.

Dorms are, for the most part, not owned by the universities anymore. They are outsourced to private companies and rent in those dorms can easily be thousands more than tuition. They have pools, game rooms, Starbucks etc. All that adds to the cost.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by pavulon

Most newly minted 2 year (insert profession here) are several years at best from any of those. Most BS() are way ahead of them in this respect. The difference is education and maturity vs training.

This. Those "unnecessary" courses are also the important ones. When you hire a bachelor degree holder, or masters degree holder, particularly from a good university, you are doing so because of the likelihood that what you are getting is superior to someone who just completed a 2-year community college program.

One of my degrees came from Gonzaga University. GU is very keen on these "unnecessary" courses. Coincidentally, GU is also known for preparing some very productive and well-balanced professional workers.

In addition to statistics, I am very fold of organizational behavior studies and human resource management. In my opinion, the thing that separates the excellent companies from the rest is very simple. The people. Every company's competitive advantage comes from its people. Some companies understand that, and some do not.

Some educational degrees are cheaper than others. Those degree holders are also less expensive. But just not a particularly good deal, in my view.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Jrboulder

You play the game

I think that pretty well sums it up. 20K per year to play the game. There have to be better ways.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Superman

This. Those "unnecessary" courses are also the important ones. When you hire a bachelor degree holder, or masters degree holder, particularly from a good university, you are doing so because of the likelihood that what you are getting is superior to someone who just completed a 2-year community college program.

One of my degrees came from Gonzaga University. GU is very keen on these "unnecessary" courses. Coincidentally, GU is also known for preparing some very productive and well-balanced professional workers.

In addition to statistics, I am very fold of organizational behavior studies and human resource management. In my opinion, the thing that separates the excellent companies from the rest is very simple. The people. Every company's competitive advantage comes from its people. Some companies understand that, and some do not.

Some educational degrees are cheaper than others. Those degree holders are also less expensive. But just not a particularly good deal, in my view.

Don't get me wrong Supe, I'm not saying they're "unnecessary" I'm just saying that a person should have a choice in the matter. I'm not sure that an Engineer really needs to have an appreciation modern dance. That's all I'm saying.