College debt and how to reduce cost

[cabmandone]

I was going to carry over some of the conversation from the "dark side" in a thread I started that went sideways in a good way but Seahawk pooched it!

Z-man mentioned student loan forgiveness in my thread. From there I said that I felt part of the problem is the mandatory coursework that a college requires to make a "well rounded student". I feel that we could reduce student debt simply by giving the student more choice in the coursework. Colleges, in my opinion, should exist to prepare a person for the work in their degree field.

A few felt that the mandatory liberal arts classes were beneficial to their development as a person. I don't disagree with things like music, art, poetry, history and other subjects being part of an education. I just feel that it shouldn't be mandatory that a person be strapped with college debt if those subjects aren't something they are really interested in. My point was that it should be up to the student to determine if those things are important enough for them to pay for those classes or if they'd rather apply the money for those classes towards degree specific classes.

From my own experience, I enjoy art, music of all genres (and I do mean all), poetry, history and many other things without ever attending college to gain an appreciation for them. They were things I found interesting. They are things that I tried to introduce my kids to as well. I think that's partly why my oldest daughter said she would have rather had the money for certain required classes go towards her degree specific coursework.

So what do you guys say? Should students be required to take classwork they aren't necessarily interested in? Keep in mind that kids today are exposed to more things through the internet so they probably have a better feel for what they like or don't like.

I would like to point out that if people here in OT could have seen the discussion that took place, you'd find that there can indeed be good discussions over on the dark side.

[look 171]

I was not a good student and struggled through high school due to lack of interest. As we age, my interests are similar to ones you mentioned, history, arts and even some of the things that end with "ologies", cultural type stuff.

As a young buck, not if you they have to pay for it especially if its an expensive private school. I think you will get a different answer from a starving student then a financially established middle age or old man. We had to take three, a semester worth of absolutely worthless upper division humanity types classes jsut so we can move on with our lives. Oh yeah, it was mandatory and we had to pay for them. They sprung that on us couple years back. We were pissed to say the least. I ended up taking some type of religious studies class which I had to force myself to forget everything that was taught in that class. The other was artist from the St Lawrence River area. I forgoteen about the third one, but what a complete waste of time and money. Plus, live in the west coast, so what the hell do I care about the St Lawrence River? Many of us stuck it through because it was the last hurdle before we start working to earn money just so we can have a life.

Now, I say it great bit it should be offer or taken at a community college at a discounted rate, 30-50 bucks a unit?

Other that that, it is robbery just like making doming mandatory for freshmen. Oh, you gotta to pay for that too doesn't matter if you live 10 min from school. Spread those cheeks.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by look 171

I was not a good student and struggled through high school due to lack of interest. As we age, my interests are similar to ones you mentioned, history, arts and even some of the things that end with "ologies", cultural type stuff.

As a young buck, not if you they have to pay for it especially if its an expensive private school. I think you will get a different answer from a starving student then a financially established middle age or old man. We had to take three, a semester worth of absolutely worthless upper division humanity types classes jsut so we can move on with our lives. Oh yeah, it was mandatory and we had to pay for them. They sprung that on us couple years back. We were pissed to say the least. I ended up taking some type of religious studies class which I had to force myself to forget everything that was taught in that class. The other was artist from the St Lawrence River area. I forgoteen about the third one, but what a complete waste of time and money. Plus, live in the west coast, so what the hell do I care about the St Lawrence River? Many of us stuck it through because it was the last hurdle before we start working to earn money just so we can have a life.

Now, I say it great bit it should be offer or taken at a community college at a discounted rate, 30-50 bucks a unit?

Other that that, it is robbery just like making doming mandatory for freshmen. Oh, you gotta to pay for that too doesn't matter if you live 10 min from school. Spread those cheeks.

The college I work for used to be a community college then we started offering a few BAS degrees (Batch of Applied Science - think about a double AS degree for getting good jobs doing software dev, nursing, etc), and we're not legally allowed to call ourselves a community college...

But we're just shy of $100/credit hour for in-state tuition. Good news, is that our AA degrees take care of all of those "well rounding" courses at UF ("the other school in town") or any other state Uni in Florida. Undergrad courses at "the other school in town" are about $300/credit hour.

Also, a lot of the BS things we have students do like Life Skills or Violence Awareness are little courses in our LMS that students need to complete some of before registering, some of before registering for 2nd or 3rd term, some before graduation, some only if they are international students, etc. And, we don't charge for 'em. (They drive me nutz since I'm the guy that does the middleware to pull results, manage enrollements etc).

The only other BS "well rounding" things we do are involved with various classes (like when you take certain courses like ENC1101 or College Algebra you are added to a cohort that does some special tracking of your progress and issues early alerts to both you, your instructors and your advisors)

We have bridge programs to degree tracks at UF - like our Gator Engineering program. You apply to UF Engineering, you are accepted for a future date, and you get to take the weed out classes and geneds (college chemistry 1 &2, college fizzicks 1 and 2, math thru Calc w/ Diff Eq) at lesser cost and with 25 students per class and instructors where just about everyone either is a native english speaker or they are at least clear and fluent and everything they say will be understandable.... and after your first 2 years, you get to go to the big school....

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by look 171

I was not a good student and struggled through high school due to lack of interest. As we age, my interests are similar to ones you mentioned, history, arts and even some of the things that end with "ologies", cultural type stuff.

We appear to be very similar. I had a tough time through school mostly because I wasn't interested. I often lament my youth and how I was in school because there are some things I wish I had paid more attention to. Poetry and music were really my two interests in H.S. Poetry mostly because the girls liked. Music because I had a music teacher that made classical music really cool.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Jrboulder

The pricing model that I'm familiar with was anything over 6 credit hours was the same price per semester. Having to get your 3 PE credits isn't going lead to financial ruin, maybe a $50 class fee at worst. A lot of the electives are basically show up and participate to pass, not meant to be a serious drain on your time outside of class.

I disagree that exposure to stuff on the internet is a replacement for course curriculum. For example, I was aware of the major coding languages and had a few failed attempts at learning any semblance of programming, but after being forced to learn a very simple language (R) in a linear regression class it finally clicked. Now I'm pretty proficient in HTML, CSS, JS, PHP and MySQL and I oversee a few projects a year.

One elective I took, Private Pilot Ground School, reinvigorated my love for aviation and now I'm a private pilot and own a plane.

IMO the best way to get value out of college is all the optional extras, such as networking, internships, introduction to new stuff, etc. Without any of that a bachelors degree in a "normal" field from a less-than-exceptional university doesn't really seem worth it. It's like buying a new Porsche in 1969. Spend a little more and get the 911S.

Hold up.. I didn't say it was a replacement. I said they are exposed to more things and have a better feel for what they like.
Take your experience with PPGS, you say it "reinvigorated my love for..." You knew it was something you might like. You saw value in that course, so you took it because it was of interest to you. That's a good thing! That's money well spent.

[cabmandone]

I think if a student is degree focused, then that's the coursework they should be allowed to take to get them to their degree and into the workforce as quickly as possible.

My eyes were really opened to some of this from my son's experience as well. He was going to school to become a RN. RN only requires an associates degree but very few schools offer an associates degree for nursing. The difference in pay from associates and bachelors degree is negligible locally. He struggled in some of the coursework, nothing truly related to nursing, and ended up dropping out of the program. Not really disappointed since I knew that wasn't his real passion... but still.

[pavulon]

The most competent RNs are those that can think critically, prioritize, communicate and are not prone to playing their get out of jail free card of 3 magic words--"I'm not comfortable."

Most newly minted 2 year RNs are several years at best from any of those. Most BSN are way ahead of them in this respect. The difference is education and maturity vs training.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by cabmando

We appear to be very similar. I had a tough time through school mostly because I wasn't interested. I often lament my youth and how I was in school because there are some things I wish I had paid more attention to. Poetry and music were really my two interests in H.S. Poetry mostly because the girls liked. Music because I had a music teacher that made classical music really cool.

Yeah, but you are still a lot smarter then me. Poetry? Only if someone explain it to me right after they read 'em.

If I has more time, after I retire in a few more years, I like to take some of those mindless classes. Its a complete turn around compared to when I was in school, tech based classes for better employment opportunities. Geology, geography, cultural anthropology and a boat load of history classes and of course gender study. All right, all right, I'm only kidding. I am not sure about reading books after books on history because that can get real boring quickly.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by pavulon

The most competent RNs are those that can think critically, prioritize, communicate and are not prone to playing their get out of jail free card of 3 magic words--"I'm not comfortable."

Most newly minted 2 year RNs are several years at best from any of those. Most BSN are way ahead of them in this respect. The difference is education and maturity vs training.

My sister is an RN and charge nurse now for Keck Medical Center here in LA. She may disagree with you on this matter. What matter is the experiences gain in the field that they can or need to read a patient's well being so they can be saved in a certain situation. Code red will make them jump like you have never seen before. No thinking required, its automatic after a few years into the job.

[look 171]

I agree with electives classes and that make us well rounded. There's are two side to this answer. I had to take a PE class when I was going to community college. HAD to take PE? I was already racing road bikes for 5 years by then so I could care less, so I opted for Tennis only because blowing was full. All other have said, bowling becasue its easy, indoors with AC, hang out and have a good time. That was the first time I actually hit a tennis ball and the last time when semester ended. I could have used those two hours building cabinets in my little shop making money to feed myself or help pay for my little sister's tuition. If I had to do it again, given the choice, I rather not waste my time with PE. Hell, I even took an meditation class and film history. All I did in meditation was sit there and fall sleep in the gym with lights out. Sure, I learn how to clear my mind, Hell, there aint anything between my eye anyway so there's that. Not one I meditated again since. Film? I did learn who Buster Keaton was as well as a few famous folks. That to me, its like learning about the Kadasians. Famous people.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by pavulon

The most competent RNs are those that can think critically, prioritize, communicate and are not prone to playing their get out of jail free card of 3 magic words--"I'm not comfortable."

Most newly minted 2 year RNs are several years at best from any of those. Most BSN are way ahead of them in this respect. The difference is education and maturity vs training.

And yet, the pay is relatively close. You'd think with all the added "value" of a BSN, there would be a pay advantage. Again locally that advantage does not exist. I can't speak to nationally but I would guess it extends to other areas. The biggest benefit is that a BSN can move into management... if that's a benefit at all. Many wouldn't want that headache.

On average, the pay difference is $3.00 per hour. Is an additional MINIMUM of 30K in student loan debt worth $3 per hour more?

[look 171]

What are RNs pay out where you are?

My sister had been making great money, even before she was a charge nurse. now, she clears over 130 but with overtime, its in the 150 range. I understand the RNs at a clinic just giving injections and such do not get pay that much. Two years experience at a hospital, out out to LA, she will hire then on the spot with a short interview. I think sing on bonus of 5k too but they must stay for 18 months. I think it pays 80k+ to start? will find out if you like next time I see her?

[cabmandone]

^^^
And yet... the pay difference is on average $3.00 per hour.

[look 171]

I know this for a fact that they will not hire without a Bachelor degree even if they passed the state's RN exam.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by cabmando

^^^
And yet... the pay difference is on average $3.00 per hour.

Will find out for ya next week when I see her.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by look 171

What are RNs pay out where you are?

My sister had been making great money, even before she was a charge nurse. now, she clears over 130 but with overtime, its in the 150 range. I understand the RNs at a clinic just giving injections and such do not get pay that much. Two years experience at a hospital, out out to LA, she will hire then on the spot with a short interview. I think sing on bonus of 5k too but they must stay for 18 months. I think it pays 80k+ to start? will find out if you like next time I see her?

I really don't know what the starting pay is here. My wife doesn't really work overtime. No weekends, no holidays. She has a nice gig. BSN for her. But she has said the only reason she has a BSN is because at the time, that's what was strongly recommended. If she was getting into nursing today, she'd save the money and get the associates degree.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by look 171

I know this for a fact that they will not hire without a Bachelor degree even if they passed the state's RN exam.

At a time where we still have nursing shortages? That's nuts.

Before the pandemic, retiring nurses outpaced new entrants. Could that have something to do with the cost of education and the minimal amount of increase in average pay?

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by look 171

Will find out for ya next week when I see her.

Sorry, that wasn't directed towards you. That was directed more to the quote about BSN lowering the mortality rate following common surgeries. It would be interesting to know what the pay difference is. But again what I'm quoting is a national average.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Jrboulder

Your line item analysis of of college is identical to me as a customer at an auto repair shop, lol. "$16 in shop supplies to do an oil change? are ****ing kidding me? What did you do, use 8 roll of blue towels??" -me last month. "Sir this is what it costs and this is what you get for it. Do you want it?"

It's all about dollars and cents to me. Those dollars and cents need to make sense from a ROI standpoint. That's the business owner in me. To me, "well rounded" sounds like fluff or something a salesman will tell you as part of a hard sales pitch.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by cabmando

At a time where we still have nursing shortages? That's nuts.

Before the pandemic, retiring nurses outpaced new entrants. Could that have something to do with the cost of education and the minimal amount of increase in average pay?

'Bout 5-8 years ago, they were recruiting nurses from India. A few were working at her hospital and busted their asses according to my sis. Not sure if they were RNs or not. What's wrong with our girls? Why aren't they getting work? She couldn't answer me and it was all coming from up top. She's wasn't a charge nurse then.