Welding - Anyone done any?

[matthewb0051]

As some of you may know we have a small fleet of Land Rovers. Both of my kids drive Disco 2 models that are about 20 years old. One was a Rhode Island vehicle that has some rot on the frame. Not horrible but need some attention. He actually drove it home 3 hours this past week not knowing that the Watts linkage in the rear was broken. I asked him if he felt the rear being a little loose, he said yes but didn't bother to look. Lucky to not end up in a ditch. Now the rear axle is about 1cm shifted to the right.

Since I bought a MIG welder about a year ago, I thought I'd give it a go. It is mainly just a hole here and there that need to get patched over. One in particular right next to where the Watts linkage ties into the frame rail.

My plan is to buy a 2mm (I believe) kit from a UK supplier that is cut to 6 specific pieces for the frame rails in the rear and cut those down to the pieces I need. First, I plan on using some rust converter stuff, possibly Eastwood, to stop the madness. Then just address the issues.

When I work on these trucks, I usually put each wheel on double stacked 2x12's that I have cut down for each wheel. That and the truck's natural lift gives plenty of room to work underneath.

Anyone have experience with welding and have any tips? Or possibly undertaken this type of work?

I just hate sending out these trucks for work. Usually end up with stupid high bills or vendors that give me the old line about the truck not being worth the effort. Or around here, shops that are Chevy or Ford only and have no idea anything else exists even though they say they do all makes. Our other Disco 2 suffers from work that was done by some of those shops. I actually found washers and nuts behind one headlight to act as spacers because some idiot couldn't be bothered to look online and find the actual part that cost less than $10.

[cockerpunk]

The biggest stuff ive done is mostly bracketry. as always, the skill in welding, isnt actually with the welding gun, its in the prep, and the finishing. im not fantastic at fabricating, and id never make my own cages or anything, but it should be pretty straightforward to make a 4 link for a live axle:



the snow bars up front are strong enough to pull it off a snowbank, and pull other people off snowbanks.

[908/930]

Have done lots years ago. Remove gas tank, keep bucket of water or hose and fire extinguishers near, ideally do it in your driveway not the garage, and stick around for 30min after you finish welding. Metal you are welding should be ground clean and any rust needs to be totally removed, hopefully you have a small right angle grinder.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by matthewb0051

Anyone have experience with welding and have any tips? Or possibly undertaken this type of work?

Welding is a perishable skill...I have stick welders and a line feed Lincoln MIG welder and always practice on like metals Off Broadway before I go On Broadway. There is a lot going on in terms of heat, wire gauge, feed rates, etc. even for the basic stuff.

All very easy to understand but ten minutes of practice in advance of show time is my routine.

Don't get me started on how much better a welder my son is than I am. Weldman.

[asphaltgambler]

Like above, most success is all in the prep. Then, enough amps to give good penetration.....

[911boost]

You said penetration

[911 Rod]

YouTube?

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

YouTube?

I've found some good videos on the Tube. But I wanted some opinions of folks I 'know', or as I tell my wife, 'my friends'.

[GH85Carrera]

I have a stick welder, and a torch. Never bought a wire feed welder. One of my friends is a professional welder. He has his own business. We went to visit and he showed me a current project he is doing on some stainless steel fabrication. It would make any beginner feel like a klutz to see his welds. He said when he delivers the pieces the employees at the shop butting them together all come over and oooh and ahhh.




This is part of the heater system next to the muffler on my 911. The piece was cracks and needed welding. I hit it with a wire brush to clean it up for him. It took him a couple of minutes to weld it. He did it a little better than I would have.


I did not want it to look like this.

[Bill Douglas]

Good plan getting the pre made sections.

I do MIG with a Lincoln and CO2 gas.

I recon figure out the thickness of the metal then get some of the same. Box section is good to practice on. Look at a lot of youtubes and try to get that nice sound and not a lot of slattering.

And MIG doesn't like rust so has to be very clean.

[rusnak]

As said already, MIG requires clean shiny metal, or you'll contaminate the weld. The filler wire needs to be compatible with the metals being joined. Use CO2 Argon with steel. If you decide to go TIG, then that's going to be 100% Argon gas. The only reason I bring that up is TIG can be a lot cleaner, and safer to the surrounding metal. The other option is to find a shop that specializes in frame straightening. Or a local race car builder. You'd probably be surprised to find that they are more common than you might think. The frame straighter guy is a subcontractor usually to auto body shops. They would be able to get you fixed and on the road in probably half a day.

[Deschodt]

Welding is the single most baffling thing to me. Looks simple, yet everytime I tried my work looked like crap, welds either went right though or did not penetrate enough. Cheap flux core seemed OK but ugly, so I eventually graduated to a nicer machine... But after my last attempt with a lincoln+gas, I got so annoyed that I donated all my equipment to a friend. Sometimes you gotta persevere, sometimes life's too short and you focus on what you're good at. I'm sure you can get good on a long repetitive job with similar metal thickness... For the occasional work and re-figuring it all out, no thank you ! Last metal repair I did was a patch that I glued to the car (not structural) with a modern bonding agent - w/ amazing results !

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Welding is the single most baffling thing to me. Looks simple, yet everytime I tried my work looked like crap, welds either went right though or did not penetrate enough. Cheap flux core seemed OK but ugly, so I eventually graduated to a nicer machine... But after my last attempt with a lincoln+gas, I got so annoyed that I donated all my equipment to a friend. Sometimes you gotta persevere, sometimes life's too short and you focus on what you're good at. I'm sure you can get good on a long repetitive job with similar metal thickness... For the occasional work and re-figuring it all out, no thank you ! Last metal repair I did was a patch that I glued to the car (not structural) with a modern bonding agent - w/ amazing results !

i describe my weld quality as "i'm an engineer"

mig never really looks "good" compared to tig. don't beat yourself up cause your not as good as someone laying welds 40 hours a week do. does it work? k. then its a perfectly good weld.

[Bill Douglas]

I did a night class in MIG, TIG, ARC and gas. Every Thursday night for a couple of months. Loved it.

But what makes you a good (well, better) welder is lots of practice welding on stuff similar to what you will be working on later.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

I did a night class in MIG, TIG, ARC and gas. Every Thursday night for a couple of months. Loved it.

But what makes you a good (well, better) welder is lots of practice welding on stuff similar to what you will be working on later.

That's exactly what I did. And I still refer to the books that I bought back then. Mine was every evening for 3 weeks. It was great. For the home hobbyist, this is the way to go.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by rusnak

For the home hobbyist, this is the way to go.

Yeah. Really gets you past that "great unknown" stage so you can set the machine up and get learning.

[unclebilly]

I’ve done lots of this stuff, even spliced the rear section of a frame from an 88 4Runner with front end damage into the back of an 80 hilux truck with a rotten frame. The splice was under the cab and I fish plated it. The 4Runner frame width was the same but the box section was taller so I had to be creative with the splice transition.

Welding good metal to thin rotten metal is a pain in the ass. You will likely find that your patch panels need to be bigger than you thought due to the metal close to the rust holes being so thin. Also, wire feeders need clean metal, no paint, no tar, or you will have bubble gum welds and a massive liability on your hands.

I’m not going to provide engineering advice on this, but I’d strongly advocate for fish plating any splices you do (if applicable). Also a lap joint is better for welding good metal to thin rusty stuff.

Set your current low enough to not make more holes but high enough to get penetration. Remember that a wire feeder is not a hot glue gun, concentrate the heat on the good new metal and pull the puddle over onto the old stuff and weave back and forth with your puddle.

[TimT]

Before you even switch the welder on.. make sure fit up and cleanliness of the pieces to be joined is almost surgically clean..

degrease the area.. bright shiny metal.... tight fit of pieces..

Practice and develop your skills before performing the work that counts..

Pics of fit up of tubing at odd angles on a cage I built for one of my cars






If you're welding outside using shielding gas build a wind break or tent... stops the gas from being blown away

Argon/C02 75/25 is good for mild steel

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

I’m not going to provide engineering advice on this, but I’d strongly advocate for fish plating any splices you do (if applicable). Also a lap joint is better for welding good metal to thin rusty stuff.

Guys, thanks for all the input.

The fish plate idea is generally what the makers of the pre-cut kit are getting at. It was developed in UK to keep from having MOT failures.

Fingers crossed.

[Monkey Wrench]

I have a dc welder and I use that a lot and I like using gas most, a small tip and I can do thin stuff with quite a bit of control. it will burn nearby paint and if the weld is on the side of a car the heat will travel upwards and cause buckling but I like that type of welding best. I do more repairs of broken things than autobody type stuff. i do some braising or silver soldering like that too.

Mig and Tig are more common now. I've heard said mig looks better but the welds tend to be hard and can stress crack, Tig is usually done in spots stitched together. the tungsten electrodes are sensitive to contamination and so if they touch they stop and clean them on a dedicated grindstone.

some go buy really cheap welders and are disappointed, the wire feed welders can be decent, like Miller or Lincoln or garbage like you may find online from a discount tools place. I think it's easier to be successful with a good one.

at work I have a little miller stick welder. It is easy to control and at home I have an old AC welder and I won't use that on anything less than about 1/16" or it will burn holes pretty easy..

my favorite is a torch and a small tip ..then I can control the puddle. Its not fast but I like doing it that way. I can usually build or grind any shape I want.

I'm not an experienced welder. I had some training and then was self taught mostly. I work with some that are experts so if it's something critical I involve a journeyman class welder that has more experience, I dont even try aluminum myself.

the point about practicing on a similar metal scraps each time, before trying to weld something is an important tip.

I like playing pool too and I never do as well on the first game as I will after maybe 3 games.. It's something about muscle memory or confidence maybe..
Practice gives you more confidence and you can get your heat ranges , distance, speed etc fine tuned.

I think no matter how good you are, you will do better after a few minutes of practice. do it every day for a year , now you have developed a wealth of experience to reflect upon. find an expert to guide you occasionally and practice between then you will avoid making the same mistake for a year due to being poorly informed. Its a combination of practice as well as the understanding of some technical aspects. a certain amount is like riding a bicycle , you just remember how once you learn but to get so you can do much of anything takes a bit of practice and a few falls are par for the course. How do you know at what point you will blow through if you dont practice. It took breaking a few bolts to know when to say , tight enough with experience you will naturally look at things like the quality of the fastener and not even really think about it in a technical way but you will know where to stop. a person who has never stripped a bolt just wont have that sense yet. stripping a bolt can actually be a good learning experience but it isn't normally recognized during the event as much more than a rather embarrassing screw up. same with blowing a hole through a piece.