Cammisa's Ultimate Drag Race Replay

[ted]

I feel Randy Probst and these super cars were severely under used in this test.

I'd rather see Randy Probst run laps in each car and see which car he prefers.
This test was as exciting as a pine wood derby race lol.

If the ultimate goal of a super car is acceleration from a dead stop, include a Tesla running 9s to further queer the test.

In the slow motion shots you can see how poor the condition of the asphalt is at Big Willow.
Although it's still a very fun track.

[HobieMarty]

Originally Posted by javadog

I think the ass end is way too busy, the tail lights are hideous.

There’s always something wrong with each Corvette generation. Bad styling, bad interior, bad suspension, always something.

I think I am now past the point of ever buying one.

Hmmm, I would take a 1970 LT-1 T-top car will 4 speed and side exhaust. How about a 1967 427/435hp 4 speed, side exhaust 'vert or coupe? 1971 454 'vert as well. I'm not picky.

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[HobieMarty]

Originally Posted by ted

I feel Randy Probst and these super cars were severely under used in this test.

I'd rather see Randy Probst run laps in each car and see which car he prefers.
This test was as exciting as a pine wood derby race lol.

If the ultimate goal of a super car is acceleration from a dead stop, include a Tesla running 9s to further queer the test.

In the slow motion shots you can see how poor the condition of the asphalt is at Big Willow.
Although it's still a very fun track.

I don't think they are saying that the ultimate goal of a super car is acceleration, it's just a drag race. A "super car" should be able to all things super right? Go in a straight line faster as well as turn left and right, have the power to rotate the earth and look good doing it all.


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[Superman]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I wish they would have finished the lap. I bet it would have been the GT3, followed by the ZO6, then the Audi, with the Ducati a very distant last. Even with its championship winning rider.

Likely so. The Corvette weighs 450 lbs more than the GT3. This quarter mile contest would have had a different result if Porsche, like Chevrolet, had focused on straight line acceleration.

WOW: Ducati has 91 lb/ft of torque and more than 200 horsepower. That suggests a stratospheric redline.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by javadog

Nope. I don’t know which car would’ve finished first but the motorcycle would’ve smoked all of them.

I took a look at times set at Laguna Seca, a tight twisty track that should favor the cars over the bike. This year’s fast time for a 1000 superstock class bike, which is where that bike would be, was one minute 26.1 seconds. And that’s with a less capable rider than Josh Herrin. That’s faster than any street car you’ve ever heard of at that track. All of the real high-end stuff (McLaren P1, Porsche 918, etc. ) is at least two seconds slower, cars like what was in that drag race are 4 to 6 seconds slower. Most of the times I looked at were set by Randy Pobst, one of the drivers in the drag race.

Josh Herrin’s fastest lap at that track is a one minute 22.9, set in 2018 on a super bike. At that track, superbikes tend to run 2 to 3 seconds faster than the superstock bikes, for a given rider.

Thanks, java, I had no idea. The only comparisons I've seen made in the car vs. bike realm are in the higher end race series, like Moto GP, WSB, F1, and FIA GT classes. In every instance there, right down to the GT cars, the cars beat the best of the bikes. As someone mentioned earlier, the F1 cars by a very substantial margin.

How close to "stock" are AMA Super Stock class bikes? How much race prep are they allowed? What tires do they run?

Probably not "apples to apples", (as a matter of fact I know it's not), but looking at the equivalent to "Super Stock" in automobile road racing points us to the various GT classes, with GT3 probably being the closest "equivalent", if there really is one. Their lap record is a 1:24.479 set by Daniel Juncadella in a Mercedes AMG in 2022.

But, yeah, I bet AMA Super Stock is a lot closer to a "street" bike than any GT3 class car is to a "street" car. Probably not a fair comparison. What would be fair, though, is to put everyone on suitable track rubber. Race rubber. Slicks. 'Cause I bet Herrin's lap time on the Super Bike was set on slicks. Put Randy Probst out in that GT3 on slicks and I bet he'd give Herrin a good run. That would be fun to watch.

I remember many years ago when the Viper was still pretty new. A couple of the motor mags, I believe R&T and Cycle World pitted one against a Yamaha R1, their top level homologation type super bike. Long story short, after drag racing, hot canyon carving, and road racing the only race the bike won was the drag race. The Viper waxed it everywhere else.

That's kind of immaterial, save for one point that I would like to mention that came to light during those contests: The Yamaha was unable to lap the racetrack safely enough on any of the then available street rubber to even conduct the test. It simply over heated and shredded the street rubber too quickly to be of any use. So, they acquiesced, and allow the bike to go out on track rubber. It still lost, but that's the difference that the rubber made, at least back then.

What is this Ducati shod with, right off the showroom floor? Would it be suitable for a track day with that rubber, or would we have to swap it out for dedicated track day rubber?

This is fun stuff. I like these kinds of comparisons. I remember seeing a track map of one of the shared Moto GP and F1 tracks, where it showed progress around the track real time for the two different racers. Pretty revealing. It would be beyond cool to see one on a U.S. track like Laguna Seca, showing the broad variety of what runs on the track. I remember the Moto GP just smoking' the straights, but really dying in the braking zones and corners. The F1 was more of a constant speed, with lower straightaway speeds but not giving up nearly as much under braking and in the corners.

[javadog]

Superstock bikes are pretty stock. You can change the cam timing on the motors and run an aftermarket air filter, but all of the main parts in the motor have to remain stock and unmodified. Frames and swing arms are stock. Bodywork can be aftermarket but it has to be the exact same profile. Lights, mirrors and turn signals are removed. You can change the fork internals and you can change the rear shock but there’s a price limit on those parts. You can run aftermarket aluminum wheels, no magnesium wheels are allowed. Again, they have a price limit. You must run a homologated ECU for the motor, the mapping can be changed but no physical changes to the ECU. Front brake rotors and pads can be changed, aftermarket brake lines can be used, aftermarket handlebars and rearsets can be used. You’re limited on tires, they’re basically a DOT legal spec tire. The minimum weight is somewhere around 375 pounds.

Around my old home track, in Oklahoma, just about any decent bike would smoke a Viper. The Viper club ran there all the time and the highly modified, track-only Vipers were decently quick but the street Vipers weren’t anything to write home about. Any decent rider on a 600 could kill one. The only Viper still holding a track record there ran a 1:22. Literbikes run in the one 1:14 range, 600s run 1:15 range.

[javadog]

Bikes are generally faster than cars, until you get to the cars can generate a decent amount of down force. Modern tires can generate 1.5 to 1.6 G of grip, downforce takes it to a whole different level and that’s when the cars gain an advantage.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Superman

Ducati has 91 lb/ft of torque and more than 200 horsepower. That suggests a stratospheric redline.

Peak power is at 13,000. Redlines on most liter size bikes are around 14,000 or higher.

[Jeff Higgins]

I wish there were a fair comparison at my "home" track, Pacific Raceways in Kent, WA. There never will be, however. The bikes have an added "bus stop" before the last corner onto our main straight to slow them down, which gets them down into first gear. I take it in fourth in my 911, so that gives you some idea of the advantage cars get.

Before they had that, I remember going to WERA road races in the '80's and '90's where their "open class" (typically punched out GSXR 1000's on alcohol) would hit mid 180's though the drag strip timing lights at the end of that straight. Modern GT3's, ZO6's, and the like are lucky to touch 150, even with the clear run at the start of the straight.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by javadog

Peak power is at 13,000. Redlines on most liter size bikes are around 14,000 or higher.

With a 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty to boot.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

With a 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty to boot.

That Panigale is 24 months, unlimited mileage…

[ted]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

With a 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty to boot.

with age comes the cage.

[HobieMarty]

Originally Posted by javadog

Peak power is at 13,000. Redlines on most liter size bikes are around 14,000 or higher.

I think, in the video, he said the Ducati had a 15,000rpm redline.

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[javadog]

Ducati has announced a Panigale 4R for 2023 that ups that benchmark. They reduced the engine size from around 1100 cc down to 1000 and the engine is rated at 218 hp at 15,000 RPM, with a maximum speed of 16,500 in 6th gear. And that is in the specifications where it meets euro five emissions. Replace the exhaust with their racing exhaust system and the quoted power becomes 240.5 hp. Obviously, this bike is intended for wealthy people to play with on track days.

[Jeff Higgins]

Wealthy people to play with on track days...

I think we've all seen the (thankfully somewhat infrequent) results of that with similar automobiles meant for wealthy people to play with on track days. Now we're talking a bike with WSB, approaching Moto GP performance, with the only gateway to it being a fat wallet. I kinda shudder just a little bit at that...

That aside, the technology is stunning. It must be fun to be a Ducati engineer these days. Blank sheet... go for it...

One interesting observation that just occurred to me regarding the subject video - three out of four are products of the same company. Different divisions, but same corporate giant...

[javadog]

Yeah, 99% of riders can’t ride any motorcycle properly, let alone one of these. Hey certainly can’t get even to 50% of the bikes limits, although they all to frequently exceed their’s. Same with hyper cars and sports cars in general.

Oh well, I’m not gonna be Ralph Nader.

I have to say, I’ve been a fan of that big corporate outfit and its products for quite a number of years. I’ll give Ferdinand Piech all the credit for that.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yeah, I love the fact that they (this big corporate outfit) and others of similar mind are still building machines like these. I thoroughly enjoy watching folks whose talents vastly exceed mine (and, in a nod to Sir Jackie Stewart, appear to have somewhat less imagination...) push these machines to their limits. Myself, my lowly '93 900 SS already exceeds mine. I know my place, but I can look on in both envy and amazement.