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-   -   Deep freeze. Pipe question (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1131795-deep-freeze-pipe-question.html)

masraum 12-23-2022 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 Rod (Post 11879353)
The sun on your roof will add a few degrees to your attic. Maybe enough to be above freezing.

That's the one benefit of this house being so old and sieve-like (very poorly insulated). The attic is currently 54º. But we've got very little plumbing in the attic since this is a pier and beam. Most of the plumbing is in the crawlspace which is normally fairly open. But I did work to mostly enclose the crawlspace. And because of the lack of insulation, lots of heat migrates out of the house through the floor, so the crawlspace is essentially heated by the house.

By next summer (and next winter) the bottom of the house and the plumbing there, will be insulated.

mattdavis11 12-23-2022 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY65912 (Post 11879297)
Remember, hot water freezes faster than cold water.

Yes it does. I'm about 80 miles due west of Steve, 16F at 4:00am this morning. No hot water. Took awhile to get it flowing again. It was fine at midnight.

masraum 12-23-2022 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattdavis11 (Post 11879539)
Yes it does. I'm about 80 miles due west of Steve, 16F at 4:00am this morning. No hot water. Took awhile to get it flowing again. It was fine at midnight.

Yikes, glad you got it going, Matt!

mattdavis11 12-23-2022 09:48 AM

Me too. One corner of my garage, where the water heater is, gets colder than the rest. I had the same heat lamp on when the freeze of 2021 hit, but this time I didn't seal (vents) out the draft. 15 feet away, a jug of water didn't freeze.

Cold water was fine.

rattlsnak 12-23-2022 06:24 PM

Mike, I’m not worried about any pipes on the inside of the house, but my house has a crawl space with all the plumbing underneath the house.. worst case for this type of event! My house is warm and im hoping as long as people are being active inside, ( using water, etc) that I’ll be ok. Running a faucet only helps that one section, not going to help the far away corners.

masraum 12-23-2022 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rattlsnak (Post 11879893)
Mike, I’m not worried about any pipes on the inside of the house, but my house has a crawl space with all the plumbing underneath the house.. worst case for this type of event! My house is warm and im hoping as long as people are being active inside, ( using water, etc) that I’ll be ok. Running a faucet only helps that one section, not going to help the far away corners.

two years ago when we had an even worse freeze I was told to seal up the crawlspace as much as possible. I did that and didn't have any problem with freezing under the house. I also had two 500W work lights under the house for heat. Nothing under the house was insulated. I think that actually helped as heat from the house kept it warm under the house.

greglepore 12-24-2022 04:52 AM

Its 8 outside and my crawl is 46. Have remote temp sensors there and in my greenhouse.

Instrument 41 12-24-2022 05:14 AM

We are sitting a balmy 17 this morning in Baton Rouge. My house was built in 1837 and is off the ground. Pex, Insulation, dripping the pipes and making sure to flush the toilets every hour. Then hope for the best. We will be below freeing for about 70 hours. For you north of the Mason Dixon you say that's nothing. We aren't built for this depth of cold. Made sure the pool salinity was a bit high and running that pool pump for a solid 4 days. The damned water and power bill will be a ***** next month.

masraum 12-24-2022 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greglepore (Post 11880016)
Its 8 outside and my crawl is 46. Have remote temp sensors there and in my greenhouse.

I'd considered moving one to under the house, but didn't want to crawl under there.

We were warmer this morning than yesterday (23º vs 15º), and today the high is probably going to be ~10º higher than yesterday. Since we survived Thu night, Fri, and last night and still have water, I think we're good to go for the next couple of days. We'll hit 40º today, 47º tomorrow, 57º Mon and should be back in the 70s by Wed.

stomachmonkey 12-24-2022 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masraum (Post 11878505)
For the folks that are worried that you're going to have the same problem that we had in Texas 2 years ago, the main reason that so many folks had issues here was because the power was getting shut off so the heat wasn't running so the house wasn't warm. That wasn't the issue everywhere.

Redbeard or his parents had an issue, IIRC, because they had pipes in the exterior wall of the garage and the garage wasn't heated. I think there may have also been an issue where there were pipes in an exterior wall OUTSIDE of the insulation. Lots of folks had issues because there were pipes in the ceiling of the garage, again, no heat.

I would think that as long as you're heating the house, that most of the pipes in the house should be good. Or maybe I'm wrong.

Yes last time we had no power so it was worse.

But so far this year we are still having issues.

Plenty of neighbors with frozen pipes.

Gas supply is an issue. Low pressure which seems to be affecting tankless water heaters in large numbers. Pilot lights won't stay lit.

So far i've lost my backflow preventer. Lost it two years ago as well. At least this time it'll be an easy fix as I'm not dealing with 13 year old connections so should come apart without having to get medieval.

jamesnmlaw 12-24-2022 06:40 AM

heat tape on the pipes in the attic
leave a faucet dripping in a couple of bathrooms
open the door to the attic
you'll be fine

masraum 12-24-2022 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11880089)
Yes last time we had no power so it was worse.

But so far this year we are still having issues.

Plenty of neighbors with frozen pipes.

Gas supply is an issue. Low pressure which seems to be affecting tankless water heaters in large numbers. Pilot lights won't stay lit.

So far i've lost my backflow preventer. Lost it two years ago as well. At least this time it'll be an easy fix as I'm not dealing with 13 year old connections so should come apart without having to get medieval.

Yes, losing power 2 years ago, was the death knell for many, many folks. Fortunately we haven't lost power, but I understand that there are folks around Texas (~100k) that don't have power. I'm not sure why or what the cause. ERCOT is showing plenty of capacity.

I heard that there were natural gas problems from someone yesterday. That sucks!

I'm sorry you are still having issues. Thank goodness the fix won't be too bad.

A buddy of mine works with an ex-coworker (they both left where we all used to work together and ended up at the same place). The ex-coworker (we were never buddies) does not heed warnings and advice. My buddy sent a pic yesterday that showed an outdoor spigot that had been turned into a fountain at the ex-coworkers house. It had a piece of the black pipe insulation on it. I don't think anyone around here relied on only a bit of pipe insulation to protect from freezing. I'm not sure how he fared 2 years ago. I would have thought he must have done more (or had problems).

Fortunately, our pipes have been OK through this. We had 1 break 2 years ago, and I made a few changes to prevent that from happening again (hot-wire and insulation in the pump house). I renewed all of the outside hose bibs insulation and wrapping/protection. If we had lost power/heat we may have had issues anyway. This year, I'll be doing more work on the house as a whole to protect even more in the future.

HobieMarty 12-25-2022 08:34 AM

I was on the phone with my sister this morning wishing her a Merry Christmas and she noticed that she wasn't getting any water through her hot water side of any of the faucets in her house but she was getting cold water. She lives in the Florida panhandle and had been having freezing temperatures over the past few days like I have had here in Alabama. So anyway, she is on a slab and her pipes go up into the attic. She told me that she didn't use any hot water at all yesterday and so I came to the conclusion that the water in the lines between the water heater and the faucets had cooled and had frozen since no water was being moved through the pipes at all over a day and a night of freezing temperatures. The reason the cold didn't freeze was because she had used the cold side by flushing a toilet or rinsing things in the sink and that the cold water had been moving throughout the day. She opened up all of the hot water sides in every faucet and in about an hour she finally had hot water flowing again. She is going to have someone insulate the pipes in the attic and also get an insulated blanket thing for her water heater as it is located in her garage. I suggested to her that she needed to use her hot water more often and to let it drip a little overnight since the temperature will be below freezing again tonight.
Oh and this is new construction by the way, her house is less than a year old. I think the builder should insulate the pipes in her attic at no charge.

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stomachmonkey 12-25-2022 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HobieMarty (Post 11880670)
.....She told me that she didn't use any hot water at all yesterday and so I came to the conclusion that the water in the lines between the water heater and the faucets had cooled and had frozen since no water was being moved through the pipes at all over a day and a night of freezing temperatures. ....

I have "instant hot".

Continuous circulation of the hot water side.

It's awesome to be able to turn on the shower and just step right in. I'll never have a home without it ever again.

During Icemageddon we noticed a pattern. The homes in my subdivision that had it had no frozen pipe issues, it was only the homes without it.

Our conclusion was since hot / cold side plumping for the most part runs in parallel the ambient from the hot side inside the walls kept things warm enough to protect the cold water pipes.

Can be retrofit to existing systems pretty cheaply.

fintstone 12-25-2022 09:11 AM

The one I installed in my vacation home is specifically to keep the pipes from freezing. It pumps the warm water into the cold line through a check valve (under the sink at the farthest point from the water heater) and it back flows back to the water heater so there is no water wasted and the water in the cold line is not only moving (whenever the pump comes on for the hot water), but it heated to about room temp. I have it set up so I can turn the hot water heater and the recirculation pump on from my phone when enroute or when the temp drops below about 25F.

wdfifteen 12-25-2022 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY65912 (Post 11879297)
Remember, hot water freezes faster than cold water.

Under real-world circumstances water needs to get to below 0 to freeze. It doesn't make sense that, under the same ambient conditions, 40 degree water would get to below 0 faster than 20 degree water.

javadog 12-25-2022 09:31 AM

It doesn’t.

stomachmonkey 12-25-2022 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdfifteen (Post 11880689)
Under real-world circumstances water needs to get to below 0 to freeze. It doesn't make sense that, under the same ambient conditions, 40 degree water would get to below 0 faster than 20 degree water.

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog (Post 11880691)
It doesn’t.

It can.

It's not just ambient conditions.

Hot water is different than cold water.

https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html#:~:text=detailed%20explanations%20R eferences-,Yes%20—%20a%20general%20explanation,it%20is%20in% 20fact%20real.

HobieMarty 12-25-2022 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11880673)
I have "instant hot".



Continuous circulation of the hot water side.



It's awesome to be able to turn on the shower and just step right in. I'll never have a home without it ever again.



During Icemageddon we noticed a pattern. The homes in my subdivision that had it had no frozen pipe issues, it was only the homes without it.



Our conclusion was since hot / cold side plumping for the most part runs in parallel the ambient from the hot side inside the walls kept things warm enough to protect the cold water pipes.



Can be retrofit to existing systems pretty cheaply.

Thanks, I'm going to have to look into this. My house is on a slab also but I have never had an issue with pipes freezing probably because our house is well insulated and wirh a wife and two kids, our water gets used quite a bit. My sister and niece are the only people at my sister's house so the water usage is less meaning less flow. I'm going to tell her about continuous circulation for her hot water.

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fintstone 12-25-2022 10:51 AM

This is the system I installed:

https://readytemp.com/prevent-frozen-water-pipes/prevent-frozen-pipes.htm


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