vintage aviation questions

[tadd]

With the rush up to Xmas over, yesterday was a time of contemplation (thank you Christmas on Sunday!). Big projects (been building a house for the FIL next door) and the Porsche is finally moving towards being on the road in 23.

There is some background , but I will promise the question will be soon!

Which brings me to looking ahead as I tend to think in 5 year blocks of time. I have always wanted to fly, but never have had the time. 2023 will be 55 for me, so i am starting to realize it is now or never. Poop or get off the pot as it were.

I have several friends who have done fixed wing. They were rabid flyers for a while, but then drifted off as the 'effort' of driving to the airfield and not any 'real' reason to fly (other than a $200 hamburger) got in the way.

Which is why I have been eyeballing Helios of the last few years. I was lucky and have 6 acres in MD on which I could easily have a 'hanger' and could fly directly out of. I have noticed that most 'toy' Helios are disposable. Take the Robinsons for example. After timing out, they are required to go back to the factory and you are basically buying a new old one.

Also part of the puzzle is I would like something vintage. Just like the p-car it is about something to maintain as well as the joy of driving it. I get there are all sorts of certifications and the like for aircraft maintainer. That hoop is not quite on the radar yet.

Since helios are expensive and bought to be used they, like industrial equipment, are run till the hours are done. Which brings me to the questions to help me formulate a long term plan...

Parts on flying things time out. If those parts are not available (and with small run manufacturing they probably are not) can they be made.? Most anything can be copied and made for reasonable money anymore. Could obsolete parts be made and put thru a 'certification' process (like getting X-rayed)? This is the big one in my current thinking of how to plan for a vehicle. Cheap outlay but sweat equity and over time cash outlay trade. As this will be a toy, there is always the experimental category, but I have not dug into what that fully entails yet...not that I would not 'do it right' as nobody wants to do it wrong, just that the certification hurdles may be prohibitive yet the custom parts are just dandy safety wise.

Again, having seen friends do this for fixed wing several ways, the 'best' path seems to be to test ride (decide you want to), then buy and use your own vehicle to learn in as money you would be paying for rental is put into your vehicle instead (whole own vs rent arguments in housing which I will not debate the merits of here).

Which brings me to my to my two current choices and the reason for the parts question. I have a big thing for the KA26. The counter rotating design is super cool and strokes my agricultural hardware fetish (i do have a Unimog!). They do pop up overseas, but are very timed out,, but very cheap... but part of my fun would be the rebuilding over time so that is not an issue for me if it takes me 3 years to complete. They are piston engines, so no weird turbine parts to try and find. Just a matter of pulling the old timed parts and getting new ones made if that is possible. The only special bit I have no idea about yet are the rotor blades. I have not been able to dig that info up yet as those might be prohibitable expensive to have made. That said they might be an 'untimed part'...

Which brings me to choice number 2... a Bell 47. It has the unique advantage of the earlier models having wood rotors which have no time limit of operation! The big disadvantage is that barn finds are rare. So it would be cost up front. Before covid I was tracking several high hour birds in the $80k range which would be doable and have enough hours still to get my flight time in. Currently quarter to half time birds are in the $100 to 150k range. Really steep for me. So higher time with spread out repair costs is more doable for me.

Third option is to do a new mosquito kit and just have a good time for $30k, but that is me alone as it is a single seat.

I apologize for the bit of a diatribe for what is a single question, but it seems like the background plan might influence an answer... given there may be options that are rarely used due to nobody with operational equipment wants to wait for.

Appreciate any answers and feedback!

[GH85Carrera]

A fixed wing aircraft is an expensive toy. A helicopter is like a yacht, really really expensive. Just finding a good qualified mechanic to maintain it, will be expensive. Find a local mechanic willing to get to your private hanger, and work on it.

We have a Cessna 182T as our "work pickup" and use it for business purposes only. The engine only starts when we have a client paying us for a project. It is still breathtaking to see the price of parts, and the fees a certified mechanic charges to install them. The FAA requires a certified mechanic do an annual inspection, and make 100% sure the aircraft is safe and ready to fly. Even finding a mechanic now is a challenge. Our long time great mechanic went and retired on us. Finding a new mechanic to fit us in the schedule, and do the work promptly is a real battle. And we keep our airplane in a nice hangar at a fairly busy airport.

Good luck with your dream. Start to hang out at a local pilots lounge, and soak up some tall tales of flying and aircraft. Get to know some pilots and get on the grapevine of who is a good mechanic, and who to avoid. Like every profession there are good ones and bad ones.

[LWJ]

I recently met a bunch of guys flying Super Cubs. One has rebuilt and flipped several planes. He turned a nice profit and the labor wasn’t particularly difficult. You could easily take off or land on six acres if flat. These guys take off in a couple hundred feet or so. A thought.

[tadd]

This is interesting... like having historic tags.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/how-to-keep-older-aircraft-flying/

[tadd]

Originally Posted by LWJ

I recently met a bunch of guys flying Super Cubs. One has rebuilt and flipped several planes. He turned a nice profit and the labor wasn’t particularly difficult. You could easily take off or land on six acres if flat. These guys take off in a couple hundred feet or so. A thought.

I have flat spots . Two of them have houses on them. Nothing runway sized that's for sure.

[t6dpilot]

Helicopters are extremely expensive to own and operate. Not for the faint of heart. Plus, they have the glide path of a chrome crowbar. Sorry Seahawk, just kidding…. Sounds like you like to work on stuff. If so, I would suggest a Kitfox or Just Aircraft. They are true STOL and some have a decent cruise speed. The Super STOL versions can takeoff and land in 300 feet +\- That might work in your “yard”. I have seen them operate in some pretty limited areas. Personally, I have the hots for a Just Aircraft Highlander.

For lessons, you could buy a Cessna 150/2/172 and enjoy it after you get your PPL. Another choice with a little more panache is the Cessna 120/140/170 family of aircraft. Pretty easy tail draggers to fly and really teach you stick and rudder skills.

[Dantilla]

Fixed wing guy here, who made the jump from certified to experimental so I can maintain the airplane myself.
Also- parts are available and far less expensive.

A&P mechanics are in short supply.

[SCadaddle]

I'd suggest starting out with an FAA medical exam and if you're deemed good there, then see how a few hours of lessons in a fixed wing aircraft suit you. You might like it. On the other hand you might freak out. Won't know til you try it.....as pilot in command.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by t6dpilot

Helicopters are extremely expensive to own and operate. Not for the faint of heart. Plus, they have the glide path of a chrome crowbar. Sorry Seahawk, just kidding…

Trust me, nothing you wrote is wrong, Glen as well

A few things, Tadd. Forget the KA. I have flown one, tremendous POS: Trabant level engineering, manufacturing and maintenance hogs as a little pepper in your Gumbo. The paperwork alone and logistics will be way, way to onerous.

PM Afterburn concerning Bell's - he knows them well.

What I would do, and I have over 1000 hours fixed wing time, almost 4k in helos, is start with fixed-wing lessons to get smart on all the airman-ship basics MUCH cheaper than in a helo.

Also, what do you envision either using of enjoying flying: Solo, with others?

If you enjoy that, then find a helicopter school that uses Robinson helicopters as their training aircraft. I say this for a few reasons. One, it will be cheaper than most other helicopter basic level trainers and, two, the Robinson will be in the performance realm of a kit or manufactured helo you can own. I have flown the R22 which is a great example of what you will be looking for.

Do not buy any aircraft for at least two years. You will need to get smart on turbine versus piston power, maintenance and repair costs, component life, etc., etc.

I went through this 25 years ago...I even have a helicopter permit to land on the farm as well as a grass runway permit, both long expired.

I decided to either rent or pay friends gas to let me fly with them. For helos, the closest folks to me fly older Bell Jet Rangers, which I flew in helo school in the Navy. I take an hour flight lesson twice a year with an instructor. The Jet Ranger is a really nice old helo, not cheap but rentable for my bi-annual trips down the helo rabbit hole.

Enjoy.

BTW:

https://rotorxaircraft.com/personal-helicopter-kit-ax600-turbo/

One more edit: Dantilla is right on the money.

[KNS]

Lots to chew on...

As mentioned, owning and maintaining a fixed wing can be expensive at times. Helicopters are breathtakingly expensive. Cessna 152/172s can actually be pretty reasonable until something expensive gets you on the annual.

You'll never find parts for a KA26 - I agree, they are very cool.

Parts can be expensive and getting hard to find for Bell 47s. I don't think anyone is making (metal) main rotor blades for them currently. Wood blades are on condition. Scotts Bell took over the type certificate from Bell Helicopter and is supporting them. They've been trying to get composite blades made (which would be fantastic!) but funding has been an issue.

If you go B47 see if you can find one with wood or low time metal blades.

Robinsons are everywhere for a reason, they're reliable (like Toyota reliable) and parts are available all over the world. Overhaul on them is 2200 hours and very expensive, however.
I used to fly with a guy who had an R44 and it seemed like all he ever did was add gas and oil. The thing never broke.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by KNS

Parts can be expensive and getting hard to find for Bell 47s. I don't think anyone is making (metal) main rotor blades for them currently. Wood blades are on condition. Scotts Bell took over the type certificate from Bell Helicopter and is supporting them. They've been trying to get composite blades made (which would be fantastic!) but funding has been an issue.

We have been approached a few times regarding composite blades for the 47's.

The certification process is long and expensive and then the legal exposure even after certification has caused us to no bid. We cannot bound the problem if that makes sense.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

A few things, Tadd. Forget the KA. I have flown one, tremendous POS: Trabant level engineering

Ouch!! Probably true.

Edit: I would love to see the 47 get composite blades but it may never happen.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by KNS

Ouch!! Probably true.

I got my five minutes pattern hop in 1989. I can't even imagine today.

There were four of us (we were doing some dissimilar threat training) and the pre-flight alone had me searching for some Vodka.

[rusnak]

Go 007, or go home:

[varmint]

Haven’t flown in 15 years. Want to get back into it. But the price is intimidating. 40k for a beater piper cub. 150k for a hangar. Insurance, maintenance, more maintenance, more maintenance.

[fintstone]

Get a 911 turbo and fly it. Cheaper to buy and operate... much safer, and it will appreciate over time. You can probably already somewhat operate one, but some drivers ed lessons could probably improve on that.

[unclebilly]

A friend has a Rotorway 162F with the A600 upgrades. After buying it, he put himself through helicopter pilot school, graduated top of his class, and is now working as a commercial helicopter pilot. I don’t think he is certified for his chopper yet but has flown it.

It’s small but these are inexpensive.

https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/kitspages/rotorway.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RotorWay_Exec

[unclebilly]

Not a helicopter but still really cool, until it isn’t…

https://altitude.ca/equipment-sales/flying-boats-2/

[tadd]

Thank you for all the replies on the general flying front. I know I am trying to posit a situation that I will get the most use and enjoyment.

Like Varment says, having to store offsite becomes a big expense that can dwarf the cost of the hardware. So being able to keep it at home is a huge plus... along with just being able to open the shed and roll out and go if the mood strikes.

From the interactions I have had with ex-military aviators (like my old boss who flew F117s), convivence and cost seem to be the drivers for 'keeping' a private flying vehicle. So pulling a permit to fly from home like Sea did to me is a no brainer.

As mentioned, some of this is driven by getting to fiddle with hardware. A good chunk of my enjoyment with the Porsche is fiddling with it, although being in assembly mode hasn't provided any driving enjoyment for a good while. But that will change this year thankfully. When I bought the longhood, I could have bought new, but the new ones just didn't do it for me. You have to be going so damn fast to get any interesting, I just had visions of my license being shredded in front of me. So I went old. Can feel like a hero on the off ramp at 50 mph.

This flying thing I see as something along those lines.

I guess it comes down to how practical do I want to be. Afterburns bird suggestion clearly fits that bill and I will certainly start nosing around those. Costs are doable and would be flying quick. Anything used as a trainer is a good starting point.

I have much reading to do about what can and cannot be done with older flying vehicles. I am not interested in making money, so there seems to be more options.

Lots to consider and given this is the planning/thinking/research year, I best get started as well as getting all the older projects cleaned up for new time/money pits!

[GH85Carrera]

You are right about hangar cost. We pay over 500 bucks a month just to keep our airplane in a hangar. That is a t-hangar with old door rollers that require a lot of effort to open and close, and there is a waiting list to get a hangar there and at most all of airports in the area. The good news is it is a 12 minute drive to get to it from home.