Thining about solar ? a few things I've learned

[brp914]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

I will add for information puposes, anyone getting solar should decide on how much or if they want extra generating capacity. If you currently have solar and want more capacity, whatever you add on has to become a separate system under whatever rules govern at the time. So you end up with two systems, the original under the regulations at the time it was installed and the new one under the rules in effect at the time it is installed. I asked an installer about that & was disappointed I couldn't just add onto mine.

That's true. Weird, huh? Maybe at that point go on your own. For instance, buy a plug-in system and schedule it to charge batteries at night and dedicate it to a particular load.

[oldE]

Our system has been working for about 2 1/2 years. Our meter records energy drawn from the grid and energy fed into the grid. Our contract with the utility has a connection fee of about $11/month and if we produce more than we use, they cut a check at the chosen anniversary date ( end of April).
Last spring our bill for the year (usage) was about $100. We use electric baseboard heat, electric water heater and range. The system cost us about $18, k and I figure our payback at around 10 years.
I have been very happy with it.
No batteries. We have a generator wired into the house in case of power interruption.

Best
Les

[Cajundaddy]

Several family members are in the solar distribution business providing panels, batteries, and hardware to installers across the country. As a result I had 5.6kw panels installed at deep discount prices. My elect. usage is relatively low and this system should cover my usage annually with little or no excess. Since the install in November we have experienced a lot of weather so we are nowhere near typical generation but as these storms move out I expect to essentially cover my typical usage over time.

A few thoughts:

Right now panels are dirt cheap but that may change depending on the China situation who supplies 90% of the materials to build them.

Batteries are expensive currently but with recent innovations things should get less expensive soon. Wait 2 years and I expect prices to drop in a big way.

Utilities are adjusting the fair market rate for net metering so we may get pinged with really low returns on any excess residential generation.

If you live in an area with a lot of sun or have high energy costs from the utility, I think solar can make a lot of sense if purchased wisely. If you live in an area with fewer than than 50% sunny days like Seattle or Portland, it would be a tougher sell as a LOT more panels are needed to reach parity.

[red 928]

My mother leased a solar system for her home.
It was, without a doubt, the dumbest move
I have ever seen anyone make.

It was a 25 year lease.
She was in her 80's and passed away a few
years after signing the contract.
The cost for the lease did not quite pay for itself in energy savings.
Her electricity bill was still high, mostly because
of all the fees and charges unrelated to actual electricity usage.
But the salesman told her that even electricity
costs rise in the coming years, it will start to pay
for itself and eventually will save her money.
If she lived to be 100 maybe.
And if the solar panels don't start getting weaker as they age.
See, there's no guaranty of output in the contract.

Oh and here's the BEST part:
She, or her estate, is liable for the entire 25 year lease.
All of it. All $41,100 worth of payments, despite the fact
that it's probably a $15k system.
After she passed, we had to keep paying for it.
The criminals at the solar company said to just
have the people who now own her house
assume the lease.
But she left the house to a friend in her will,
and her friend was not stupid enough to assume the lease.
They said no way.

So we had to keep paying for the lease,
until the probate and estate was officially closed
and all assets were distributed to the trust.

Now the lawyers can fight it out,
and we have been in contact with the assistant DA
concerning elder abuse charges against
the solar company.
No, it won't fly but may be enough to get
the crooks to tear up the lease to avoid
all that really nasty publicity that we will
be pushing on every outlet available.

signing a solar system lease that does not
contain a reasonable escape clause and does not
IN REALITY pay for itself
(Despite what the salesman says and
what many lessees pretend to believe) is a really, really bad move.
Especially if it involves sunrun.
A REALLY bad move.

[jhynesrockmtn]

My mother leased a solar system for her home.
It was, without a doubt, the dumbest move
I have ever seen anyone make.

Do you think you have any recourse with this? Was she targeted due to her age? I can see this industry being ripe for scam artists or at least very pushy sales people.

They are all over our neighborhood and a house 5 down from me just installed it. No way it makes sense. They have knocked on my door several times. I talked to someone at our utility and did their on line calculation tool which used our google earth images of the house and usage to see if it would make sense. The answer came back no. Our winter days are short and usually pretty cloudy.

[nota]

the sell power to the corpRATS DEALS REALLY SUCK
local FPL deal is about 10% of the price they charge plus fees

my idea is to just size the solar out put to match the a/c draw in the daylight
with out batterys or any storage to start with

has anyone else tryed that way ?

[gregpark]

Solar is certainly not for everyone.
It only makes sense if your electric bill is sky high, you live in a year-round sunny State, you don't have trees blocking the sun, your roof has 15 years left, you don't plan on moving soon, you do it before before the tax rebates end and before the new net metering law to tax the sun takes place (March in CA). And then it only makes sense to own and not lease. When you let a solar company put a system on your roof at no cost you're basically giving them free rent on top of your house to make money for themselves.

[Evans, Marv]

in my area SDG&E has raised their electricity costs and more than doubled natural gas costs. They have a three tiered charging sutructure for electric. Last I remember, the first tier was mid 20 cents/kWh, second tier was mid 30 cents/kWh, & third tier was low 40 cents/kWh. Last year they lowered the top of tier 1 by about 130 kWh. rather than obviously raise tier rates a lot. New rates went into effect this year. I tried to find the new tier rates 7 wasn't too successful. I did find a rate chart for residential with the first two tier rates, but I'm not sure about accruacy. But the first tier rate was listed as 45 cents/kWh, 7 the second tier rate was listed as 57 cents/kWh. I didn't see a rate for the third tier. I know they more than doubled the rate for natural gas, and I'm assumiing they use a lot for gneration, so an increase can be expected. Maybe their wholesale rate for electricity has risen from two to four cents to four to six cents.

[stealthn]

Love some of the experts here to chime in…

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by gregpark

Solar is certainly not for everyone.
It only makes sense if your electric bill is sky high, you live in a year-round sunny State, you don't have trees blocking the sun, your roof has 15 years left, you don't plan on moving soon, you do it before before the tax rebates end and before the new net metering law to tax the sun takes place (March in CA). .

Right here, dude. It's still a false economy without the gov't. subsidies and it's barely a good deal with them. We might save $150-300/yr and that's mostly because of the new a/c we installed after we went solar. If it can't survive in Phoenix without the subsidies, it's a false economy everywhere else.

[gregpark]

^ the reason it works for me is because we get reamed by Pacific Gas and Electric in N CA. In summer my electric was $400 a month because of the AC. Now it's $10.49. Solar isn't a viable choice if your not getting screwed by the supplier

[CalE]

Originally Posted by red 928

My mother leased a solar system for her home.
It was, without a doubt, the dumbest move
I have ever seen anyone make.

It was a 25 year lease.
She was in her 80's and passed away a few
years after signing the contract.
The cost for the lease did not quite pay for itself in energy savings.
Her electricity bill was still high, mostly because
of all the fees and charges unrelated to actual electricity usage.
But the salesman told her that even electricity
costs rise in the coming years, it will start to pay
for itself and eventually will save her money.
If she lived to be 100 maybe.
And if the solar panels don't start getting weaker as they age.
See, there's no guaranty of output in the contract.

Oh and here's the BEST part:
She, or her estate, is liable for the entire 25 year lease.
All of it. All $41,100 worth of payments, despite the fact
that it's probably a $15k system.
After she passed, we had to keep paying for it.
The criminals at the solar company said to just
have the people who now own her house
assume the lease.
But she left the house to a friend in her will,
and her friend was not stupid enough to assume the lease.
They said no way.

So we had to keep paying for the lease,
until the probate and estate was officially closed
and all assets were distributed to the trust.

Now the lawyers can fight it out,
and we have been in contact with the assistant DA
concerning elder abuse charges against
the solar company.
No, it won't fly but may be enough to get
the crooks to tear up the lease to avoid
all that really nasty publicity that we will
be pushing on every outlet available.

signing a solar system lease that does not
contain a reasonable escape clause and does not
IN REALITY pay for itself
(Despite what the salesman says and
what many lessees pretend to believe) is a really, really bad move.
Especially if it involves sunrun.
A REALLY bad move.

After a dozen of solar companies came out to farm, Sunrun came with a EE. He told us we where not a candidate for solar house and shop facing east and west some how my Moronic Brother signed up a lease for my 90yr Dad with sunrun panels on roof of house and shop, Just seems criminal, panels have been up less than a week? I'm pissed off @ sunrun!! Is this Legal?

[red 928]

Originally Posted by CalE

After a dozen of solar companies came out to farm, Sunrun came with a EE. He told us we where not a candidate for solar house and shop facing east and west some how my Moronic Brother signed up a lease for my 90yr Dad with sunrun panels on roof of house and shop, Just seems criminal, panels have been up less than a week? I'm pissed off @ sunrun!! Is this Legal?

I spoke to my lawyer about it and said he sees this all the time.
The contract is legal and proving that they took
unfair advantage of an elderly person is tough,
especially when they have more lawyers.
You basically have to prove mental incompetence on
the part of the lessee at the time of signing and that
the lessor knew about the vulnerability and took advantage of it.
Another angle is if the sales snake provides
details that are not accurate in the sales pitch.
Hard to prove without recordings, and they are careful
of what they put into writing.

IMO it all stinks but when portions of an industry are in bed with the
power companies and are generous contributors to
political campaigns, the odds are against the consumer.

What they don't want is a lot of negative publicity
to scare away future customers.

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

Nick. Is a ground installation possible at your site?

No unfortunately. HOA.

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

in my area SDG&E has raised their electricity costs and more than doubled natural gas costs. They have a three tiered charging sutructure for electric. Last I remember, the first tier was mid 20 cents/kWh, second tier was mid 30 cents/kWh, & third tier was low 40 cents/kWh. Last year they lowered the top of tier 1 by about 130 kWh. rather than obviously raise tier rates a lot. New rates went into effect this year. I tried to find the new tier rates 7 wasn't too successful. I did find a rate chart for residential with the first two tier rates, but I'm not sure about accruacy. But the first tier rate was listed as 45 cents/kWh, 7 the second tier rate was listed as 57 cents/kWh. I didn't see a rate for the third tier. I know they more than doubled the rate for natural gas, and I'm assumiing they use a lot for gneration, so an increase can be expected. Maybe their wholesale rate for electricity has risen from two to four cents to four to six cents.

Marv, utilities are required by law to provide accurate and complete rate information to the public. Doesn't mean it's easy to find on their site, but one thing utilities really don't want to do is run afoul of the PUC.

Edit: Here's the link to current SDG&E electric & gas rates:

https://www.sdge.com/rates-and-regulations/current-and-effective-tariffs

Rate sheets ('tariff' in CA, apparently) are regulatory documents and not really written in consumer-friendly language. I can help decipher some of them if you have a specific question.

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by gregpark

Solar is certainly not for everyone.
It only makes sense if your electric bill is sky high, you live in a year-round sunny State, you don't have trees blocking the sun, your roof has 15 years left, you don't plan on moving soon, you do it before before the tax rebates end and before the new net metering law to tax the sun takes place (March in CA). And then it only makes sense to own and not lease. When you let a solar company put a system on your roof at no cost you're basically giving them free rent on top of your house to make money for themselves.

Solid observations, Greg. And deschodt also touches on a couple more gems, like quality of siting/installation (especially re: water intrusion & wind damage), and properly sizing your system -- not just for your use, but generation vs storage (get enough battery).

One observation I'd add is that a savvy shopper will research the various time-of-use (TOU) rates offered by their utility. Knowing rates is important, but what's really important is to understand when the peak, off-peak, winter, summer, etc. rates shift over and how those overlay your daily solar production and your patterns of use. This will help you figure out how much storage you need and when, for example, you might want to run equipment like pool pumps that don't necessarily need to be on a daily schedule like AC. The switchover points between rates are designed not to help consumers but to help the utility smooth out (remove the peaks and valleys) of energy demand by disincentivizing use during peak times.

Also, several of you have mentioned using batteries to draw electricity from the grid at night using off-peak rates and either supplementing solar during the day or selling back the excess to the utility at on-peak times. This is essentially energy arbitrage, and IMHO conceptually, potentially a good idea. The customer gets a smaller bill and the utility benefits from extra storage capacity on its system that customers pay for.

Technically possible, and works for the benefit of a single customer but scaling up that opportunity isn't likely to be broadly implemented though. The utility needs to be able to monitor and, more importantly, predict how much of this stored energy will be released back to the grid at any given moment. This is incredibly difficult and complex. From a system perspective, residential rooftop solar is incredibly complex and inefficient; adding residential storage into that mix would make the monitoring and predicting the combined inflow/outflow of energy an order of magnitude more troublesome. Again, from a systems perspective, large-scale installations on commercial properties (like those giant distribution warehouses) are far more efficient and allow every customer -- not just owners of single-family residences -- to benefit.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Flat Six

From a system perspective, residential rooftop solar is incredibly complex and inefficient

Can you explain why it is inefficient? It seems having extra generating capacity during the day when use is at its peak would tend to level the peaks and valleys of generator demand and aid efficiency of the system.

[Superman]

[Deschodt]

After starting all this and reading replies, I made an excel spreadsheet of my bills, before and after. Before being just PG&E, after being a combo of residual PGE bill (gas and access to the grid) + the solar company bill. The year this kicked in, my PGE bill went like 500-450-420 to 90-41-19-28 - LOL.... But I also pay the solar co !

This year is my first being on solar and the system only came on mid June, so halfway thru the year. Even so my yearly bill went something like this:
2018: $2200
2019: $3200
2020: $3400
2021: $3500
2022 - half solar $3100 - (3400 minus $300+ of credits still on my account to be paid off or applying to 2023, no clue when my true up is, guessing june)

So not a huge savings yet - 10% - but half a year only and still relying on natural gas for heater and water heater, and you know how expensive gas went this year, it's been 90% of my PGE bills.

If I switch over to all electrical over time I think I will see more savings, gas was killer this year. I also missed out on solid April-June production months (making way more than I use) and at least partial generation Jan-March (making 50 to 80% of usage).

Finally I'll repeat that I did not do this so much for the savings but a) to be able to use my A/C in summer whenever, guilt free - which we certainly did b) to get a battery backup, which has already been good 2 or 3 times for small outages. Added bonus is a predictable bill, say low 200s ea month vs big fluctuations from $160-$500

This all started for me a few years back when PGE cut power to us for over a week when they started that fire in Sonoma county with downed powerlines. One day is fine, one week is not acceptable. With solar panels recharging our battery 100% during summer days, we'd have been fine with the grid down indefinitely. Also I see PGE rates going upwards fast, and we do get a lot of sun and no trees interfering. That said points above about leasing are valid and I wish I would have bought the system, it was simply too expensive for me to do so at that size...

[masraum]

Lots of interesting stuff in this thread, folks!

We're not currently looking at solar, but it's been in the back of my wife's mind for a while. I don't think it's very useful for us right now for several reasons, but more education/knowledge is always a good thing.