Thining about solar ? a few things I've learned

Deschodt · 08:31 AM

There are pros on this board who are gonna scoff at this because they already know, but this is what I've learned about my solar install.. If I were to get a do over I may go a different route, or not... If I got this wrong I'm sure they will chime in - bearing in mind some of the issues I mention are specific to my install !

For info I leased a system - zero down, about $200/mo for 20+y - guaranteed production # and rate increase protection vs ever climbing utility costs - 24 panels, battery, 10 circuits covered by battery. We sized it for 130% of my needs because I'm adding an EV + moving heater/water heater from natural gas to electric....when they break (not now, too $$ to throw away a working system)

Things I learned

- You kinda need a battery with solar - well you don't "need" it but without one you are simply putting your power back on the grid and playing a credit/debit game. There is no way for your house to use that solar power "directly" from a panel. As things stand, the power I make is flowing to fill my battery (for me) and then to power the grid (where I get a credit). At night I still get my power from the grid (cheaper) and overall we settle with the utility once a year. That part is a bit of a ripoff but I'll get to that. As far as I know the battery is used for times where power is cut, I am not sure it's used to power the house in "normal" situations - need to find out. Also the battery only charges from my solar, never from the grid, so in winter it's not at 100% and would not bail me out quite as much as it might in summer. Were the power to fail in summer I'm confident based on numbers that I would have juice for days on end, refilling during the sunny day (I make 45-52kwh - consume about 20-25)

- Solar production varies, a lot: a summer august day I make 52 kwh in a day. Yesterday in january, 1 kwh ! The day before, peanuts. Cloudy days still produce something like 30% of a sunny day, +/-, but really cloudy/rainy not so much. Winter is a killer with shorter days and clouds, not doing much. Also daylight savings time removes an hour (it's a joke people!!! ;-)

-The utility companies are ass$%@#s. I can see the need to reconcile at some point if you owe them. But rather than keep a rolling tally of your credit, they insist on paying you off at a certain date. If that date is december 31st, they will pay out your solar power credit for pennies on the $, much less than what they charge you of course, but then that zeroes out the deal... since you're not generating squat in winter you now likely will owe them for some power Jan-feb-march again instead of comfortably living off your credits that you earned last summer. That is a big D-move.

Overall, for me, with a leased installation, I paid nothing out of pocket at all, and I am paying somewhat less on average than I was paying the utility company each month - but not a ton less until I get rid of gas appliances completely.. maybe 10% tops. It will get better when the furnace goes electric. The benefits are 1) a more predictable bill, 2) the free battery backup (esp in summer), and 3) I produce more so I probably will charge the car for free overall, and may see more savings when the water heater or furnace eventually go electric. Heads up: It's NOT a substantial reduction in cost, more of an insurance policy and free smugness during occasional outages ;-)

If I were to do this again (pros may agree or disagree), I would possibly buy my system, maybe a smaller one, eat the costs with some tax credits and then be out of any contracts (but also lose support and warranty eventually).
But mostly, I think I would go another route... I would BUY a Powerwall (of any brand), set it up to charge at night when the power is cheap, and give back when the power is expensive if that is doable and economical vs the cost of the powerwall and its' 10y life span - is it ???. Or at least have it as a backup instead of a generator like I had before... I'm more interested in the backup notion than the production...

Just sharing for those thinking about it... If any of that is incorrect I'm sure experts will chime in.

Eric 951 · 01-04-2023, 08:13 AM

good post. I am curious of your thoughts on the quality of the installation and components themselves.

stevej37 · 01-04-2023, 08:17 AM

I drove past an Amish home/farm this am. I noticed that they had just had solar panels installed on the roof of their house.
The panels seem to be getting real popular here lately.

Deschodt · 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric 951

good post. I am curious of your thoughts on the quality of the installation and components themselves.

I am not qualified to comment on the quality of the components. I can only say the battery system is very sensitive to crappy wiring, my house is 2/3 modern and 1/3 1960s wiring, and too much of a load on that old circuit like a portable electric heater will sometimes pop a fuse on the battery connected circuit. It likes good clean power and my house has lots of quirks (I wanna say shared neutrals but I don't know what I am talking about) . The system looks nice and professional, like the enterprise's warp core.

Install quality however is very good - thorough roof inspection prior, it's pissing rain in Cali right now and not a leak since last may's install. Looks decent from above...

unclebilly · unclebilly's Garage

Awesome post. Some of this I knew.

We have a solar developer sniffing around wanting to put panels on the section we live on and own 1/2 of. I’m playing along for now but will want a payout when they sell it to another developer (this is the game). My land is the key to making this project work.

BK911 · BK911's Garage

Excellent post and excellent timing; I need a new roof and am considering going solar.

The way I hope the industry is heading...
Instead of shingles AND solar panels, why not combine both into a ~rubberized coating that absorbs heat and charges a battery bank?
Repairs would be simple; just reapply some more coating.
Same sort of technology for cars.
Cars could charge in the parking lot without ANY infrastructure.
Lots of real estate on f/r hoods and roof.

Deschodt · 01-04-2023, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BK911

Excellent post and excellent timing; I need a new roof and am considering going solar.

The way I hope the industry is heading...
Instead of shingles AND solar panels, why not combine both into a ~rubberized coating that absorbs heat and charges a battery bank?
Repairs would be simple; just reapply some more coating.
Same sort of technology for cars.
Cars could charge in the parking lot without ANY infrastructure.
Lots of real estate on f/r hoods and roof.

they make solar shingles too... Not sure it's affordable though. I wanted a new roof and I wanted metal, but thankfully that old roof was still go enough for now.

berettafan · 01-04-2023, 08:46 AM

One statement in OP stands out to me- 'The utility co's are a##holes'

That is what the solar co's become when you sign on.

Nickshu · Nickshu's Garage

We are in the middle of an install as we speak. Agree w/ your conclusion that solar without batteries is much less beneficial to the homeowner IF you live an an area that does you pay you for what you put back on the grid (like I do). Some areas pay the homeowners individually for what they put back on the grid, so solar without batteries might make sense there.

Downside is my house sits south on the front so the panels make my house ugly.

Evans, Marv · 01-04-2023, 08:53 AM

I'm repeating myself here a few times over, since I've commented on other threads.
I got solar installed, going online in June of 2016. I haven't paid an electric bill since last year. That was the first year we've run the house (3.2K s.f. - all electric except for the two propane tankless water heaters) along with my wife's EV for a full year. I paid $288 at true up time.
My system is 25 panels generating a high of around 52+ kWh/day(up to 1.3 mWh/month) at peak in summer and about 6 to 7K kWh/mo. at the low during winter. I paid $29K for the system and got the 30% tax credit at the end of the year, so end cost was around $19K. The system generates 110% of my average useage over a three year peiod before installation. If I had to do it over, I'd have had a few more panels installed.
SDG&E has some of the highest - maybe the highest - rates in the country. They just announced another hefty increase. In prior years, I'd sell back about 3 mWh to them for the huge amount of $100 credit at 2 to 4 cents per kWh. I decided to use that up by charging my wife's EV. My siystem paid for itself around last year - so over a period of about six years.
My main satisfaction is that I'm preventing myself from getting screwed by the utility and gas companies.
Of course the Utiiity and the State are coniving to make healthy cuts into the advantages solar owners have. The state is plotting to initiate a mileage tax on vehicles, & the utility is coniving to have solar customers pay a fee for using the grid system.

Deschodt · 01-04-2023, 08:56 AM

Marv, same conclusions for me. I decided to use all my credits too, hence the EV purchase and replacing furnace/ waterheater ASAP. The pay off (true up) is a rip off. You go ta good deal though, my system was gonna be closer to $60k out of pocket if I wanted to buy (big chunk being the battery)

Evans, Marv · 01-04-2023, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickshu

Downside is my house sits south on the front so the panels make my house ugly.

Nick. Is a ground installation possible at your site?

Evans, Marv · 01-04-2023, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Marv, same conclusions for me. I decided to use all my credits too, hence the EV purchase and replacing furnace/ waterheater ASAP. The pay off (true up) is a rip off. You go ta good deal though, my system was gonna be closer to $60k out of pocket if I wanted to buy (big chunk being the battery)

Wow! That's a chunk. A friend had a power wall installed for zero cost to him. It was through some kind of grant program for old people (I'm 80 now) with some kind of health problem(s). They were on the creative side in his case. It was facilitated by one of the local solar installers. So I'm going to look into that. You pay out of pocket (he paid $26K) at the time of installation and get paid back at tax time. I'm hoping I can take advantage of that, but I'll need a larger storage than he has.

Norm K · 01-04-2023, 09:04 AM

I would assume you have no plans to sell anytime soon.

I've known more than one person whose leased system became a problem when prospective buyers didn't want it (or if they did want solar, didn't want to lease and found the buyout option unpalatable). Given the seller's market at the time, they were able to work things out, but we're quickly moving toward (or in many areas, have already moved to) a buyer's market which will likely make it harder for sellers to negotiate on that front.

Like so many other things, it seems the choices when deciding whether or not to move to solar are more complicated than they should be.

_

Evans, Marv · 01-04-2023, 09:10 AM

I paid for mine because a lease arrangement just wasn't attractive in my mind. Plus, I was of the impressison the installers got the tax credit, so out of picket was attactive to me. I don't know at this point how true that is. The transfer of the lease at sale was a small factor too, although I'd probably be dead by that time.

latunabernie · 01-04-2023, 09:22 AM

When you lease the rebates go directly to the company you are leasing from.
When you lease and you want to sell your house you may have problems, if the new owner does not want to take the lease over.
We purchased our solar outright.
We did not want it mounted on the roof of our house.
We built a 3 car carport and mounted the panels it.
We also put a whole house propane generator in at the same time.
We got tax credits for everything. Carport, generator and solar.
We have horses, are on a well for water and have some septic that needs to be pumped.
The battery backup would not power everything we would have to choose what we wanted to work when the power went out.
We went with the propane generator because if the power goes out in the summer, I wanted to be able to use everything including A/C and my shop.
2 years ago when we had the big fires it was very smokey. You could not open your windows from the smoke and ash.
We ran the A/C for 3 months straight day and night our biggest bill was for $13.00.
We also have the carport set up for electric charging station if we want to go electric.

Bernie

Deschodt · 01-04-2023, 09:34 AM

It is true, the leasing complicates a sale somewhat if you plan on moving soon. That said here in Cali given PG&E's "less than stellar" reputation and incompetence (constant outages, causing fires, blowing people up with gas leaks) I would think a large % of people would be happy to be paying them nothing (or very little) and take over the attractive lease.

I could be wrong but I think it's more a positive than a negative in this case, as my rate is guaranteed and lower than current PGE costs, and that gap will increase as PGE is charging way more each year and my increases to the solar co are actually capped < inflation.

Worst case, it's easy enough to buy it out before selling if it's a problem. The system is 4% of the house value, at least that was my thinking... I should mention that cost includes guaranteed production (or panel replacement), free repairs, and a new battery after 10 years.. not insignificant.

latunabernie · 01-04-2023, 10:19 AM

It is just another thing you have to deal with in the negotiation of selling your house.
If they plan on remodeling and it involves the solar and you own it outright, they could do whatever they want. if it's leased, they have to with the leasing company.
I live in Calif. and have PG&E like you do.
Right now all the Calif. utility companies are pushing to raise Electric rates and lower homeowner solar buy back rates.
The people that have it now will have their rates grandfathered in.
We added 6 panels this year. You have a true up at the end of the year, and we wanted it to balance out.

Bernie

Evans, Marv · 01-04-2023, 10:35 AM

I will add for information puposes, anyone getting solar should decide on how much or if they want extra generating capacity. If you currently have solar and want more capacity, whatever you add on has to become a separate system under whatever rules govern at the time. So you end up with two systems, the original under the regulations at the time it was installed and the new one under the rules in effect at the time it is installed. I asked an installer about that & was disappointed I couldn't just add onto mine.

brp914 · 01-04-2023, 10:43 AM

It would be nice to be able to charge a battery from the grid at night. I wonder if an installer could do that or if it's some regulatory thing. My 12KW solar/ 10KWH battery is config'd to operate the battery on 4 circuits (kitchen and MBR) at night, down to 25% charge, then switch to grid. By morning, the battery is 25% so I am reliant on grid until the sun comes up. If it rains, it's grid or nothing. I'm not able to change the battery mode of operation, only the installer (Sunlux) can do this. In the past I've had the battery operated as back-up only. The full charge is available at any time, but how long would you wait to use it? Another option is to sell battery power during peak (expensive) time. I haven't done this.