Electric School Buses

[Superman]

There is no doubt that electric vehicle technology is imperfect. (...and that it is still an emerging technology that is improving). Compared to ICE vehicles, they don't have the range needed for longer drives. They largely use electricity made from burning coal. Et cetera.

But there continue to be some interesting developments. Electric school buses sit all night and almost all day. When used, they are used for a fairly brief time and not-so-many miles. Because of this, electric school buses make some sense.

At least one electric utility is using them in another way. The utility stores energy in those bus batteries which can be used during peak-demand periods. One of the most expensive problems for utilities is the lumpy nature of demand for electricity. Bus batteries are large and there are a fair number of school buses. They store a substantial amount of electricity.

But it doesn't there. Any consumer-owned renewable energy system that uses batteries can be used by utilities as 'backup' energy sources. They can be 'topped up' by utilities during low-demand period, then they can provide power during peak demand periods. Particularly for short-duration demand periods where demand changes by the minute.

School buses, and other private systems that store energy in batteries, could potentially be so useful to utilities that the utility might pay to set them up. And some generation facilities, particularly gas-powered plants used to supply peak demands, and which are expensive to operate sporadically as they are, might not be needed.

So apparently, having EV batteries sitting around everywhere is turning out to be a benefit beyond just saving money for their owners by eliminating gasoline purchases. Also, apparently, kids make far less noise when riding electric buses. They are quieter.

[LWJ]

Cool. It makes sense.

[GH85Carrera]

It all depends on the school district. Some of the school bus routes in rural Oklahoma are indeed circuitous and very long. But for many urban areas, you they can make some sense if the school bus storage yard is close to a sub station, and they can do the two way charging. The initial investment will be very high.

[masraum]

I've seen electric versions of the Amazon delivery van and UPS delivery van. Busses make sense too. Delivery vans and busses should have plenty of space and carrying capacity for adequate battery. The frequent stops and starts, presumably mostly at "around town" speeds (25-45mph) should allow for lots of regenerative charging. And as has been said, the long down times, at least for school busses give plenty of time for charging.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

It all depends on the school district. Some of the school bus routes in rural Oklahoma are indeed circuitous and very long. But for many urban areas, you they can make some sense if the school bus storage yard is close to a sub station, and they can do the two way charging. The initial investment will be very high.

Yep, some school routes and delivery routes are longer and more rural, but MOST are shorter and more of an "in town stop and go" affair.

Obviously, there's still a need for some standard ICE vehicles, although a school bus probably has more than enough space and grunt to haul around a BIG battery that would allow for a pretty considerable range.

[1990C4S]

My local school bus depot has about 80 buses parked in their lot at night. That's a lot charging logistics. Or infrastructure.

Fast charge in maybe two hours? And you have the bus for about 16 hours? Each charger can do eight buses (maybe). So maybe ten chargers? And some bus jockeys. Or a big investment in a smart charging field.

[wilnj]

I don’t think anyone disputes the value of EVs. Without getting too PARFy, the pushback comes when they’re forced as a one size fits all solution.

As far as around town speeds, I got on to the interstate behind an Amazon electric van. Based on the time of day and direction it was heading, I assumed it was empty. As soon as traffic opened up, it took off like a shot.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by wilnj

I don’t think anyone disputes the value of EVs. Without getting too PARFy, the pushback comes when they’re forced as a one size fits all solution.

Or when they think they might possibly some day be forced.

There are a lot of irrational 'hate posts' and 'failure glee' on this subject. They don't work for everyone, but they are not pointless, stupid, the end of driving, etc.

[Crowbob]

If you ignore all the reasons electric buses don’t make no sense, they make sense!

It is interesting, though, the many innovative ways they’re coming up with uses for enormous batteries on wheels.

One tiny school district here got on board and shot through its wad of cash to buy an electric bus amidst great hoopla last spring. A follow-up article, not coincidentally during our recent arctic cold snap, talked about the bus that looked so cool and quiet sitting in the garage. Their greatest praise was, ‘It has electrolytes!’

[masraum]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

My local school bus depot has about 80 buses parked in their lot at night. That's a lot charging logistics. Or infrastructure.

Fast charge in maybe two hours? And you have the bus for about 16 hours? Each charger can do eight buses (maybe). So maybe ten chargers? And some bus jockeys. Or a big investment in a smart charging field.

Good point. Purchasing 80 chargers sounds like it could be a pretty big budgetary consideration, and if they didn't have one for every bus, or at least, one for every bus that runs daily, then there's a pretty big logistics consideration.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

If you ignore all the reasons electric buses don’t make no sense, they make sense!

It is interesting, though, the many innovative ways they’re coming up with uses for enormous batteries on wheels.

One tiny school district here got on board and shot through its wad of cash to buy an electric bus amidst great hoopla last spring. A follow-up article, not coincidentally during our recent arctic cold snap, talked about the bus that looked so cool and quiet sitting in the garage. Their greatest praise was, ‘It has electrolytes!’

ROFLMAO!

Brawndo, It's got what plants need!

[Crowbob]

Don’t believe me. Here’s a link.

http://localhost:60736/2024/01/18/how-cadillac-area-public-schools-electric-bus-is-holding-up-on-the-roadways/content.html

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

If you ignore all the reasons electric buses don’t make no sense, they make sense!

Why don't they make sense?

[rwest]

I think a huge benefit is getting rid of all that diesel exhaust in the neighborhoods and around schools.

I live in a fairly densely populated neighborhood area and there are a lot of buses driving around and on certain days, the exhaust just hangs and even gets sickly.

As others have said, there are smart ways to go about using electric vehicles and they shouldn’t just be bought because of appearances, but instead for functionality.

[unclebilly]

Makes sense in town…

Doesn’t work for rural areas like where we live. Each bus driver takes their bus home at night (typically to a farm with a 100A service). Each bus driver would need to have upgraded transformers at their farms for this.

I think rural areas are where most school busses are used…

[unclebilly]

When it’s -30, do the kids freeze or???

[masraum]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

Makes sense in town…

Doesn’t work for rural areas like where we live. Each bus driver takes their bus home at night (typically to a farm with a 100A service). Each bus driver would need to have upgraded transformers at their farms for this.

I think rural areas are where most school busses are used…

Right, it's obviously only right in certain circumstances. If there's only a handful of stops and the stops are all 5-10-20 miles apart, and like you said, the bus driver would then have to foot the bill for the charge, that wouldn't make any sense.

But if it's a suburban school where the bus route is only a few miles with 30 stops and the bus gets dropped off at the bus-yard/school/central location each night, then that might be perfect.

[unclebilly]

Hybrids would make a pile of sense with all of the stop and go. All the benefits of electric and internal combustion with none of the bad parts.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by masraum

Right, it's obviously only right in certain circumstances. If there's only a handful of stops and the stops are all 5-10-20 miles apart, and like you said, the bus driver would then have to foot the bill for the charge, that wouldn't make any sense.

But if it's a suburban school where the bus route is only a few miles with 30 stops and the bus gets dropped off at the bus-yard/school/central location each night, then that might be perfect.

That’s our neighborhood and would make complete sense. In terms of implementation, you don’t dump a fleet of 20 buses and buy all EV.

You buy one or two. You put in the capacity to power 10, you put in the chargers for 4. S the fleet ages, you switch to EV.

There is some risk with early implementation. It appears that the manufacturer of the EV chargers I installed under Ph 1 of the project I’m working on went TI so Ph 2 includes funding to switch those out to a different brand.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

Hybrids would make a pile of sense with all of the stop and go. All the benefits of electric and internal combustion with none of the bad parts.

I’m not certain but I would suspect something like a bus with a lot of stop and go would be on ICE more than battery.