Are vehicles now too complex ?

[rfuerst911sc]

^^^ Yeah I hear you . There is local to me a 1996 Chevy Silverado 1500 extended cab in excellent condition for sale . One owner with 5.7 Vortec and 145000 miles . He wants 12k and is firm on price .

This would compliment my diesel dually and be more comfortable and practical as a backup daily driver to my wife's Volvo . A Chebby V8 is easy to maintain and durable . This thread has me thinking about buying it or something similar .

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

My 86 El Camino daily driver has 382,000 miles and my 85 911 is up to 192,000. I have not had a car payment in this millennium. Repairs are way cheaper, and they are both going UP in value. Now, the El Camino has manual door locks, manual window winders, and neither have ABS, traction control, tire pressure monitors, backup cameras and all the fancy new options. Most parts are available. There are near infinite options for an engine swap on the El Camino if I wanted more power. Bot cars have kick butt fantastic air conditioning and great heat.

You forgot to add the cost of the crate engine you bought for the elky...your only engine swap, if I recall correctly.

[GH85Carrera]

Yea, the whopping $1,700 for a brand new, not rebuilt or aftermarket, but new GM crate engine delivered to my door. I put it in over the long thanksgiving weekend. I reused the old water pump, alternator, starter, AC compressor, and I did splurge and get a new intake. I reused the same fuel injection setup I had on the old engine.

All my accessories like the water pump, alternator, starter, power steering pump, steering rack, are "guaranteed for life" so I have not had to pay for a new one of any of those. A new fan motor for the heater and AC is just 20 bucks, and I can change it in 20 minutes or less. I bought new GM Mr. Goodwrench front brake pads for $12 delivered to my door, those are up to almost 20 bucks now.

Parts on old G body GM vehicles are cheap. We drove it up to Enid, OK for Christmas. 100 miles each way. I figured out we have made that round trip in the El Camino at least 200 times in the 32 year I have owned it.

[MMARSH]

Glen, I'm not sure if you've mentioned it before, but is the engine in your 911 all original or has it been rebuilt. I haven't looked recently, but I imagine getting a 3.2 engine rebuilt these days would be about 20K. But I'm guessing.

[GH85Carrera]

After one of the regular roads trips, back at 150,00 miles in the 911, I was inspecting the car, and noticed one head was wet, and that ain't right. So pull the engine and transmission, and investigate the head. Two of the studs had loosened. They did not break or pull out, just backed off. Totally unusual. So pull the head to fly cut the heads, and of course "while I was in the there" may as well do a total top end. And then slide off the cylinders to take a look and "while I was in the there" maybe replace the rod bolts. Then we decided to go ahead and split the case, and "while I was in the there" replace all the bolts and "while I was in the there" may as well do some case work, and order some 964 cams.

All in all the factory rating is 200 HP at the flywheel, now it is 200 HP at the rear tires. And yea, it was a little bit more than $1,700 all in.

And also while the engine was out, I bought a all new clutch parts kit, so a new clutch. And I had the transmission rebuilt with new bearings and new syncros 1st through 3rd.

I replaced all the rubber suspension bushings with new Elephant racing rubber bushings, all new Bilstien shocks, turbo tie rods and ball joints, and I rebuilt the steering rack and I have a 4 condenser Mr. Cool AC setup from Griffiths that flat out works in 107 degree heat after a day of driving it still blows 37 degree air. Every little project that needs to be done to G body cars has been done. Still all that is way cheaper than car payments, and the car has increased in value 5 fold from the price I paid back in 1995.



It still looks great.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

After one of the regular roads trips, back at 150,00 miles in the 911, I was inspecting the car, and noticed one head was wet, and that ain't right. So pull the engine and transmission, and investigate the head. Two of the studs had loosened. They did not break or pull out, just backed off. Totally unusual. So pull the head to fly cut the heads, and of course "while I was in the there" may as well do a total top end. And then slide off the cylinders to take a look and "while I was in the there" maybe replace the rod bolts. Then we decided to go ahead and split the case, and "while I was in the there" replace all the bolts and "while I was in the there" may as well do some case work, and order some 964 cams.

All in all the factory rating is 200 HP at the flywheel, now it is 200 HP at the rear tires. And yea, it was a little bit more than $1,700 all in.

And also while the engine was out, I bought a all new clutch parts kit, so a new clutch. And I had the transmission rebuilt with new bearings and new syncros 1st through 3rd.

I replaced all the rubber suspension bushings with new Elephant racing rubber bushings, all new Bilstien shocks, turbo tie rods and ball joints, and I rebuilt the steering rack and I have a 4 condenser Mr. Cool AC setup from Griffiths that flat out works in 107 degree heat after a day of driving it still blows 37 degree air. Every little project that needs to be done to G body cars has been done. Still all that is way cheaper than car payments, and the car has increased in value 5 fold from the price I paid back in 1995.



It still looks great.

Your car is clearly worth it, but keeping a car long term like you have is not easy or cheap. Stuff breaks and potentially leaves you stranded. You do a lot of stuff yourself and/or know what needs to be done and has it done. Lots of folks don't know or have the ability to do stuff themselves (Yep, some people wouldn't be capable without constant supervision). And for those folks, trying to have stuff done would be more $$$ than they could manage. And that's if they manage to find an honest, competent mechanic (often not the case). I've seen lots of cases of folks getting intentionally screwed by dishonest and incompetent mechanics as well as cases of getting unintentionally screwed by incompetent mechanics.

[GH85Carrera]

No doubt, owning an old car and relying on someone else to do the work is a bigger challenge. Doing the work myself is a big part of my car hobby. My wife's friends all think she is nuts to go with me on long cross country road trip in a 39 year old high mileage car.

This summer, I drove to Palm Springs, CA for a week in the HOT desert. One day I drove out into the Joshua tree park. I sometimes did not see other humans for 30 minutes at a time. Several times I shut off the engine and walked around, and took photos. It was great to walk back, twist the key, and hear the engine spring to life.


Idyllwide, CA


Joshua Tree park


Roswell, NM

Almost 5,000 miles total in remote areas and it ran like Porsche is supposed to.

[MMARSH]

I'm sure it runs great. Doing that transmission and engine work today would probably cost 30K. I spent $7500 on the transmission in my 72 911 back in early 2000s. It cost more then one of the used 3.2s I put in it which was 4K. Those days are long long gone. I sold my dad's SC a couple of years ago and it had 284K on it.

[wildthing]

To answer the OP's question, in short, yes.

I just bought a new Toyota Highlander. Yes. Car manufacturers make more money on SUVs. I can tell they used cheaper looking plastics compared to the 2011 Sienna. The door frames are now covered in black plastic, instead of metal that is painted black. But that's not what makes it more complex.

It now has a turbo. My Sienna had a V6. Sure, I'm all for better mileage and lower emissions. Turbos are more complex. But they're still mechanical.

Mine has blind spot monitoring (BSM) and rear cross traffic alert (RCTA) standard. These were options or available only in the higher trim levels back in 2011. I do like them. But then of course, yet another electronic item that could fail.

I am good with these aids as long as: 1) their failure does not leave me (or my wife) stranded because the car won't start due to failures in these systems. 2) drivers understand that these are aids, not replacement for actually looking before acting.

The new cruise control is now adaptive. It has a radar that senses how far and how fast the car in front of you is going, and decreases speed accordingly. This is very convenient, although it does not suit my style of driving. (I try to pass as a first option vs slowing down, so that I don't lose momentum and use up more gas. ).

It also has lane tracking assistance. It's good, but it's not perfect. Any break in the painted lines causes it to beep, as it cannot look further ahead. It also requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel (for safety reasons) but then when the car pulls the steering wheel by itself, it is a bit unnerving. (I tend to drive closer to the left line than trying to be in the middle all the time, so I find myself fighting with the system from time to time.) And then again, this, along with the adaptive cruise control, tends to give some drivers a false sense of security, and they may become complacent or inattentive - causing more accidents.

I get that these are stepping stones to full self-driving, but I'd rather focus on educating drivers until that is a reality.

The old cruise control on my Sienna never failed in 244,000 miles. Heck, even the cruise control on my 88 911 still works. But the sensors add complexity. I am hoping that the designers and programmers erred on the side of caution - if the sensors fail, I hope the default action is to track straight and not attempt to steer by itself.

I guess my main design principle for automotive software (not that I am in this business) is that it should be there to enhance the operation, not be the main controller. Like, if the software fails, the mechanical parts should still work. My car shouldn't lock me out or be inoperable due to a bad software update.

[p911dad]

Wildthing, we just got a new 4Runner (2024 maybe last of the traditional 4Runners) with all the goodies your Highlander has and like you I find the adaptive radar cruise annoying, it slows you down where normally I would switch lanes and pass. Oh well. I do like that Toyota kept most of the buttons and knobs so we don't have to deal solely with the touch screen, just like our 2008 4Runner. It's kind of old school new school. You can still drive this with gloves on!

[masraum]

Originally Posted by wildthing

The new cruise control is now adaptive. It has a radar that senses how far and how fast the car in front of you is going, and decreases speed accordingly. This is very convenient, although it does not suit my style of driving. (I try to pass as a first option vs slowing down, so that I don't lose momentum and use up more gas. ).
I am hoping that the designers and programmers erred on the side of caution - if the sensors fail, I hope the default action is to track straight and not attempt to steer by itself.

I guess my main design principle for automotive software (not that I am in this business) is that it should be there to enhance the operation, not be the main controller. Like, if the software fails, the mechanical parts should still work.

Obviously not the same make, but in my wife's Outback, if the car can't figure out where the lane lines are, it doesn't do anything. If the visibility of the system is adversely impacted (by heavy rain and spray from the vehicles ahead) to the point where it can't "see", then the adaptive cruise disables itself (no cruise at all) and the vehicle reverts to the human needing to drive and control the speed. I think I've experienced that 2 or 3 times in the past 2-3 years due to torential rain while driving on an interstate in fairly heavy traffic. So it's not exactly a sensor failure, but it's a failure of the sensor to sense which I would think the computer may not know the difference.

Originally Posted by p911dad

Wildthing, we just got a new 4Runner (2024 maybe last of the traditional 4Runners) with all the goodies your Highlander has and like you I find the adaptive radar cruise annoying, it slows you down where normally I would switch lanes and pass. Oh well. I do like that Toyota kept most of the buttons and knobs so we don't have to deal solely with the touch screen, just like our 2008 4Runner. It's kind of old school new school. You can still drive this with gloves on!

Have you fellas checked the owner's manual for options? We don't have a Toyota, but on my wife's Subaru I have a few work arounds.
1 You can tailor the following distance via button (near or far in 4 steps) so I have her car set to the closest distance most of the time which gives me more space and time to move out. I am able to anticipate the car letting off and change lanes before it slows down. If I feel it slow down, just hitting the turn signal usually causes it to speed back up.
2 Put your foot on the gas. You can manually override the automatic slow down with your right foot, and then when there's no longer a car in front of you, the cruise will go right back to where and how it was set
3 Like I said before, just change lanes to pass before you're close enough for the car to slow down. If there's too much traffic because the other lane(s) also have vehicles, then use the manual override of your right foot and as soon as you've got a clear lane, the vehicle should hopefully go right back to where it was.

If there's so much traffic that you can't pass, then I either tap the brakes to disable the cruise (I can hit resume once the traffic clears) or, again, use the manual right foot override.

While Subaru != Toyota, I have to think that Toyota is at least as smart as Subaru, and most standard safety features will probably work very similarly between manufacturers (at least of similar sophistication/size/quality)

[wildthing]

I did find the setting to change the distance but at least in the Highlander there are only two settings. I presume it's something like 3 seconds vs. 2 seconds.

What's strange is that even though there is a proximity sensor for the cruise control, there is no parking assist feature, or at least something to tell me how close the car is to the garage door. You'd think they'd load that piece of software since the hardware's already there. (Ok maybe I do need to read through the manual, but you'd think that'd be on by default.)

Also: https://www.fordraptorforum.com/threads/automatic-software-update-bricked-my-truck.96624/

[masraum]

Originally Posted by wildthing

I did find the setting to change the distance but at least in the Highlander there are only two settings. I presume it's something like 3 seconds vs. 2 seconds.

What's strange is that even though there is a proximity sensor for the cruise control, there is no parking assist feature, or at least something to tell me how close the car is to the garage door. You'd think they'd load that piece of software since the hardware's already there. (Ok maybe I do need to read through the manual, but you'd think that'd be on by default.)

Also: https://www.fordraptorforum.com/threads/automatic-software-update-bricked-my-truck.96624/

Parking aid sensors and adaptive cruise sensors are different sensors (different locations, different technology, different effective ranges.

Toyota drive sensors


parking aid sensors

[rfuerst911sc]

There's no doubt some of the bells and whistles are cool . But anymore a simple front end collision ( as an example ) can total the car because of all the " stuff " that needs to be replaced . And that stuff is sometimes difficult to obtain due to supply issues .

I am sure buyers like myself are the minority . I am so out of the loop I don't do any social media other than car forums 😋 . I plan on putting my Boxster up for sale in the spring . If/when it sells I will look for something to replace it .

I have a 996 so I have sports car needs covered . I will be open minded to SUV/truck/sedan . But I really think whatever I get it probably won't be any newer than about a 2015 . I just don't want all the nannies .

[jhynesrockmtn]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

I have a 996 so I have sports car needs covered . I will be open minded to SUV/truck/sedan . But I really think whatever I get it probably won't be any newer than about a 2015 . I just don't want all the nannies .

With the new Tundra and Sequoia out now, I'm guessing there will be more older generation ones on dealer lots that were traded in.

[p911dad]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

There's no doubt some of the bells and whistles are cool . But anymore a simple front end collision ( as an example ) can total the car because of all the " stuff " that needs to be replaced . And that stuff is sometimes difficult to obtain due to supply issues .

I am sure buyers like myself are the minority . I am so out of the loop I don't do any social media other than car forums 😋 . I plan on putting my Boxster up for sale in the spring . If/when it sells I will look for something to replace it .

I have a 996 so I have sports car needs covered . I will be open minded to SUV/truck/sedan . But I really think whatever I get it probably won't be any newer than about a 2015 . I just don't want all the nannies .

Yeah, the dealer said mess up the front radar bumper it will be about $4,000. to replace it!