Are vehicles now too complex ?

[rfuerst911sc]

This article is about a Ford F150 but I think all manufacturers are similar in electronic complexity . So I think is a good conversation topic . So what do you think ?

https://www.thedrive.com/news/how-this-2018-ford-f-150s-faulty-taillight-turned-into-a-5600-repair

[Flatbutt1]

The canbus has been a bit of a pain since day one. It used to be you could hang an accessory on a bike or vehicle wherever you could find an open line. Not with canbus.

But $5600 due to a tail light is outrageous.

[KNS]

It's one of the reasons our auto insurance is skyrocketing. Many new safety features, for example (mandated by the Govt in many cases), cost a lot of money to replace after an accident. Cameras, sensors, etc., that we never had before.

[rfuerst911sc]

I think when features like lane departure assist and cruise control crash avoidance were added among others the technology became too complicated and too integrated . I think those technologies may have merit but it would be nice if it was optional .

Have we reached a point where the technology is so costly to repair that vehicles will be totalled ? My newest vehicle is a 2010 Volvo . Maybe I am stuck in the past but I am not sure I am interested in anything much newer than a 2015 or so . Yeah I get it , I am a very small % of the automotive buying public .

[Seahawk]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/how-this-2018-ford-f-150s-faulty-taillight-turned-into-a-5600-repair

[hcoles]

Some of the complexity is forced by government regulations. The results include variable valve timing, direct injection, displacement on demand, etc. etc. A bunch of other stuff is not necessary but since electronics are available they invent "features". E.g. auto heat/AC control, seat position memory, nanny controls, abs, auto window rollup, automatic adjustable shocks, auto ride height, auto head lights, etc. etc. All these systems have electronic control modules, software, wires and connectors. So the answer is yes, there is a lot of complexity that is not necessary and is costly to maintain. DIY is getting more and more difficult. Think of where we would be without OBDII.

[Dixie]

Count me in the cars are way, way too complicated camp, but I wonder if that's due to my age. Perhaps those who grew up driving a Model T thought a 1960 Ford was too complicated.

[Tobra]

Yes they are

[Flatbutt1]

Gone are the days when Dad and I would gather points, plugs, condensers, oil and filter and spend a Saturday afternoon tuning the cars while listening to the Yankees on the radio. I loved turning on the strobe to adjust the timing.

[GH85Carrera]

I replaced the headlight in my El Camino for 8 bucks, and 10 minutes of time.

Yea, new cars are overly complex, and the engineers are not even thinking on how too repair as a part of the design. With starters inside the bell housing of the transmission, and 5K+ tail light replacements. It is one of the reasons I love my old 1980s cars. That and they are both going up in value, negative depreciation!

The PDK in my wife's Macan is like magic and silly complex. It is just amazing and in sport mode it knows just when to shift, and downshift. I can't imagine the dealership actually works on a PDK, likely a total replacement is the "fix".

[rfuerst911sc]

So will we reach a point of ala carte ordering ? Let's say for discussion purposes you only want a vehicle with fuel injection, AC , power windows/mirrors and ABS/traction control . That's it . No infotainment no lane assistance etc etc .

Will we be able to order a basic model ? Or is a stripped down model no longer available because the masses want the bells and whistles ?

[Seahawk]

When I ought the Tundra in 2014 I waited for a model without all the nav aids, base radio (it is very nice with BT, steering column controls, sat capable - beats my Pioneer Super Tuner days), cloth seats, etc.

The only extras I wanted were a back up camera (unbelievable time saver if you tow a lot) and heated seats.

There was no "package" with heated leather seats that wasn't at least a 4k upgrade of stuff I did not want.

I ordered the leather seats separately for just over 1k and they installed them for free since I let them keep the old seats.

It can be done, you just have to want to wait on what you want.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

Have we reached a point where the technology is so costly to repair that vehicles will be totalled ? .

Yes. In another thread we discussed the cost of replacing a wiring harness on an upscale car (Audi?) that was chewed by a mouse exceeded the value of the car.

I think part of the problem is build quality. Is it so hard to use rodent-resistant wiring? So hard to seal a taillight unit against water leaks? Or for that matter, is it so hard to build cars that don’t require an absurd number of new parts to make a simple repair? I’m thinking here of my Tundra that a squirrel chewed through an emissions hose. They had to replace the entire fuel tank ($1900) because a 1/4 inch rubber hose that was an integral part of the tank had a hole in it.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

So will we reach a point of ala carte ordering ? Let's say for discussion purposes you only want a vehicle with fuel injection, AC , power windows/mirrors and ABS/traction control . That's it . No infotainment no lane assistance etc etc .

Will we be able to order a basic model ? Or is a stripped down model no longer available because the masses want the bells and whistles ?

Nope. Much of the gadgets only S class Mercedes came with are now required by the US DOT. Backup cameras, tire pressure monitors, airbags everywhere, ABS, traction control, and I believe even lane departure is required.

My 85 911 will happily start up while in gear. The drivers of the 1980s had to have brains. With lots of idiots starting cars while in gear, now it is required to press on the brake pedal and have it in neutral or park to start. Idiots that never look at tire pressures caused the mandate for tire pressure monitors.

[fastfredracing]

Omg yes. I think there is a quiet movement where people are purchasing and holding onto cars from the 90's .
Its crazy , a simple headlight , or rear view mirror replecement which used to be just a lens and maybe a power motor , now costs 5k , and needs programmed .
New tech is cool but yawn.. I yearn for the days when I was an honest to goodness mechanic, who , on a daily basis, replaced, or even rebuilt pumps, timing chains, transmissions,engines, clutches, gear sets etc.
I find it difficult to get excited about diagnosing, and replacing a 5k plastic box

[wilnj]

Yes.

Costs of maintenance/repair aside, I find all the “aids” a distraction.

And the insurance costs cannot be set aside. I love the YouTube videos of someone buying an essentially new but totaled car that the insurance company wasn’t willing to take a risk on. The auction buyer invests some time working through codes to find some safety mechanism that deployed in the accident and ends up with a $90,000 Yukon Denali for $20k at auction plus a few hundred in parts.

[gacook]

It has gotten ridiculous...

My wife's KIA Sorento got hit by some road debris last year, right after we bought it. Messed up her front bumper real good. That ended up being an almost $10k repair and took them about 5 months to get it done because of all the sensors in the bumper and other components it tied to, which of course nobody had because it was a brand new car with no supply line to speak of for parts...

[Arizona_928]

Let’s not forget that led head lights and tail lights are sold as a sealed unit. No replacement “bulb”…

I ordered my ram with manual everything and no shark fin antenna. Windows, locks, transmission, and transfer case. I have added a straight axle shaft (the CAD will fail if the computer doesn’t talk to the wheels), and manual locking hubs (free spins)… Came standard with a rear camera.

Those who buy the fully loaded electronic vehicles must have more money than me…. Especially when they’re spending ~10% of the purchase price on a tailgate and electrical system that fails when water seeps into it.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by fastfredracing

Omg yes. I think there is a quiet movement where people are purchasing and holding onto cars from the 90's .
Its crazy , a simple headlight , or rear view mirror replecement which used to be just a lens and maybe a power motor , now costs 5k , and needs programmed .
New tech is cool but yawn.. I yearn for the days when I was an honest to goodness mechanic, who , on a daily basis, replaced, or even rebuilt pumps, timing chains, transmissions,engines, clutches, gear sets etc.
I find it difficult to get excited about diagnosing, and replacing a 5k plastic box

I mean. On the new 911’s, one has to take off the bumper for an oil change…

[stevej37]

Many of the new electronic features are defeatable on my 22 Civic. I don't really like paying for features that are always turned off.

One feature that I never had before and I really like is...auto dimming high beams. It's very nice driving at night and not having to mess with dimming and back to highs.