BMW Z3 and Others

[Seahawk]

I am in the planning stages only, at my cube in Bancroft, doing due diligence on a small open air roadster. I am a year out - creek don't rise, etc.

What I really want is my 964 Targa back but that ship ran aground years ago. I just want some open air driving, which was sparked by a post about the Lotus Elan. This will be a car for two seasons a year in South Carolina. Price point, because I really don't need it, is sub $20K. The top will only be up if it rains while I am out.

I am looking at:

- Miata. I think they are great and a complete no-brainier. There are some Grand touring Miatas's that look amazing.

- Z3. I know nothing about them. Good years, bad years?

- Boxsters. Same as the Z3.

- Also, any websites for the above three?

I have considered other makes, but I don't need performance, just good a/c and and a manual.

What have I missed?

[recycled sixtie]

Miatas just don't seem to be noticed readily. Too many close calls. Boxsters are built stronger or feel that way.

They get more respect on the road. I miss my old Boxster but not so much the Miatas.
I do not know anything about the Z3. Enjoy your search!

Cheers, Guy

[KNS]

Z3 came in four cylinder and six cylinder engines (not sure if the four cyl was sold in the US). The M52 and M54 inline sixes are the same engines used in the E36 and E46 3 series models and are very long-lived engines. Many of the maintenance items for the E36 and E46 can be found on the Z3.

James May from Top Gear drove a Z3 four cylinder automatic in one episode and hated the transmission but didn't have anything bad to say about the rest of the car.

Their biggest weakness (like many BMWs), are the plastic cooling systems. Look for comprehensive records of cooling system maintenance. Also, control arm bushings are good for about 60,000 miles. By this age there should have been a lot of work performed overall unless it was a sunny day driver with low miles. I've owned an E46 for 20 years and am very happy with it. Never driven a Z3.

E46fanatics.com covers a lot of maintenance for the 3 series and you'd find a lot of similar maintenance covered there. Not familiar with the most popular Z3 sites.

[masraum]

I get it. I'd love to have my old '88 targa back in tip-top shape, but that's not going to happen.

I(we) have had 2(3) miatas, '97, '99, and '04 factory turbo. They were all great, fun little cars. I think I'd love an ND. On the '97 and '99, I wasn't happy with the suspensions (too soft). In all 3 cars, the seats looked supportive, but weren't. I did like the suspension and handling in the MSM. I think it would be possible to upgrade to parts removed from an MSM or something similar fairly simply/cheaply. No idea if the NDs would need any upgrades since I've never been in one.

I've got a Boxster S (3.4L) and love it (It's great, but doesn't quite have the "soul" of the old targa, but then not many cars do).

Boxsters, I'm sure you know about the IMS issue. The bearings were improved multiple times right up until 2008. In the late models '08 for sure, you can't replace the bearing without splitting the case, so it's a good thing that's the best bearing out there. Then there's the issue with bore scoring and piston skirts breaking. '09 and up there's no IMS to worry about, but I think those still have the bore scoring and piston skirt breaking as a possible issue. And wasn't there some sort of issue with cars with direct injection.

I've got a buddy that recently bought 2 super low miles, early Z3s. I think one is a 1.9L narrow body, and the other is a 2.8L 6-cyl. Visually I prefer the narrow bodied cars. I've heard that there could be various issues with the Z3s depending upon the years etc....

What about MR2 or MR2 spyders?



Or the fiat version of the miata?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Paul, I think you can narrow your choices down by figuring out what you will comfortably fit in.

Just a guess but I think Boxster and 996 Cabriolet might your only options, though certainly a BMW 3 series convertible would be fine. Mustang? Camaro? Toyota Camry and equivalent Lexus?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Paul, I think you can narrow your choices down by figuring out what you will comfortably fit in.

Just a guess but I think Boxster and 996 Cabriolet might your only options, though certainly a BMW 3 series convertible would be fine. Mustang? Camaro? Toyota Camry and equivalent Lexus?

I think Paul has mentioned being 6'3". That may rule out at least some miatas. I'm 6'2" with long legs and I fit, but I had a buddy that was 6'3" and 275# and he was a tight fit on the pass's side. I did do some surgery on my driver's seat in both of my miatas to make the fit better and seats more supportive.

[klaus]

Is the Z4 an option? The price difference between a Z3 and Z4 is minor and the chassis is way more modern.

I was trying to remember the chassis stiffness figures, I was going 3x off the top of my head, thankfully the internet is there with the answers:

All values’ unit is in Nm/deg.
BMW E36 Z3 5,600
BMW E85 Z4 16,000
BMW E85 Z4 M 16,000
Mazda MX-5 (NA 1st-gen, NB 2nd-gen) 6000
Mazda MX-5 (NC 3rd-gen) 8800
Audi TT Roadster Mk1 10,000


If you were to consider a Z4, the 3.0Si 6 speed cars are really nice, and for a few dollars more you can get the S54 Z4M. Common warning are the same for any BMW of the era with the added problems of the soft tops, the hydraulic rams tend to fail, and to replace them you need to remove the top.

[aschen]

everyday driver did a great multipart series on this a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifK7m-snRSY

20k buys the nicest NC miata in the world, which is the direction I would take. The german cars are faster but part of the charm for me would be a car that I am not messing with much.

ND miata would be closest to the elan in ethos, you can probably find a high milage ND for sub 20, it will still be cheaper to own than a aged german sports car.

For fun to drive factor, low weight is everything in my humble opinion. Lap times and power are inconsequential. Sound of a flat 6 or I-6 near redline is a treat that would go missing in the miata though

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Paul, I think you can narrow your choices down by figuring out what you will comfortably fit in.

Limiting factor, as always, the loose nut at the wheel.

You are not going to fit in a Miata, NFW. You are bigger than me, and a Miata fits me, barely. You might fit in a 3rd gen Miata, but I am dubious.



Boxster is going to be the droid you seek. You will need to go sit in them. S2000 Honda is a torqueless wonder, still was shocked I did not care for it.

Volvo made a convertible that looked pretty good.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by aschen

everyday driver did a great multipart series on this a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifK7m-snRSY

20k buys the nicest NC miata in the world, which is the direction I would take. The german cars are faster but part of the charm for me would be a car that I am not messing with much.

ND miata would be closest to the elan in ethos, you can probably find a high milage ND for sub 20, it will still be cheaper to own than a aged german sports car.

For fun to drive factor, low weight is everything in my humble opinion. Lap times and power are inconsequential. Sound of a flat 6 or I-6 near redline is a treat that would go missing in the miata though

When I had my miata, I put 4 new Bilstein shocks on for <$500. I was able to upgrade the suspension to height adjustable coilovers for <$500. I was able to upgrade from 14" to 15" wheels for <$500. A full set of 4 sticky street tires was <$600 installed. Replacing the timing belt (non-interference) and all of the usual "while you're in there" stuff (seals/gaskets, water pump, etc...) was <$200 and was easily done in a weekend.
I think a full brake job with all pads and rotors was <$150.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by aschen

everyday driver did a great multipart series on this a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifK7m-snRSY

20k buys the nicest NC miata in the world, which is the direction I would take. The german cars are faster but part of the charm for me would be a car that I am not messing with much.

ND miata would be closest to the elan in ethos, you can probably find a high milage ND for sub 20, it will still be cheaper to own than a aged german sports car.

For fun to drive factor, low weight is everything in my humble opinion. Lap times and power are inconsequential. Sound of a flat 6 or I-6 near redline is a treat that would go missing in the miata though

Carmax isn't known for being the cheapest...

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Limiting factor, as always, the loose nut at the wheel.

You are not going to fit in a Miata, NFW. You are bigger than me, and a Miata fits me, barely. You might fit in a 3rd gen Miata, but I am dubious.



Boxster is going to be the droid you seek. You will need to go sit in them. S2000 Honda is a torqueless wonder, still was shocked I did not care for it.

Volvo made a convertible that looked pretty good.

I've never driven an S2000, but always wanted to.

[aschen]

NCs are a bit more expensive than I thought and NDs are a bit cheaper, if carmax is the litmus

Seems like with some looking might even squeeze an ND2 (post 2019) in budget. A no brainer if you fit as it is as fast as the german cars in budget

[unclebilly]

The answer is always Miata.

Seriously, these things are an absolutely incredible platform.

Want more power, put in a turbo or buy a turbocharged one.

The NC or ND cars have more power than the earlier cars that we race in spec Miata.

If you want incredible performance, look for one with an LS swap. Flying’ Miatas used to sell complete cars and kits.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

The answer is always Miata.

Seriously, these things are an absolutely incredible platform.

Want more power, put in a turbo or buy a turbocharged one.

The NC or ND cars have more power than the earlier cars that we race in spec Miata.

If you want incredible performance, look for one with an LS swap. Flying’ Miatas used to sell complete cars and kits.

Miata
Is
Always
The
Answer

[otto_kretschmer]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I have considered other makes, but I don't need performance, just good a/c and and a manual.

What have I missed?

How about a Mini Cooper convertible? People may think you're a poof but at your age, who cares?

Never drove or even sat in one but you should fit. Might be fun enough to tool around in and have more useful space than a Miata.

I was going to suggest a Jag XJS convertible but thats more of a project than a car to drive.

[otto_kretschmer]

Also a 80s/90s BMW 318 softtop.

[Seahawk]

Excellent advice. thanks!

I added a few to the list!

[cockerpunk]

if you fit, the miata is clearly the best car here.

the Z is mostly junk, its heavy, not very powerful and still has e30 rear suspension (semi trailing arms). it will also be expensive to maintain. they look pretty good IMO.

boxster isnt a bad idea per se, but still heavy, not very powerful and expensive to maintain. though probably less, and it has real suspension in the back, so like, much better than a z3/4

s2000 these are great cars, but they are probably double the cost they should be. seems wild to buy or own one right now because they are in such a bubble. fun cars, raced one for a few years. just too much money to justify these days.

MR2 spyder: i had one of these. pretty great cars TBH, the only trouble with them is they made so few of them, and they were so unloved in their time, there is very little aftermarket support for them. maybe not an issue if you want to keep it mostly stock. pre 2002 ones burn oil and pop engines because of it



gonna make a plug for my dream old man roadster for toodling ... TR6. terrible at everything, but man do i want one.

[Seahawk]

If I can work through the a/c thing (five months a year is doable in SC without air) the TR6 will get added to the list. Great suggestion.

Hemmings has a bunch for sale and I will start doing homework.

I received a text message concerning another car - can that person send me their name?

Thanks.

Again, I value and appreciate any input and advice.

Best.