Potomac Accident for OT Only

[SpyderMike]

Pretty good analysis I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfgllf1L9_4

[Tim Hancock]

All kinds of reasons/circumstances are being discussed but as a pilot who has received traffic alerts from ATC.... The controller called out the traffic to the helo and the helo responded they had visual and would avoid the traffic. At this point the pilot in command of the helo is ultimately responsible and bears the blame.

[URY914]

Tim, what percentage of air mishaps are a result of pilot error?

[911_Dude]

Ive read a lot of accident reports, and been on a few accident investigation teams for smaller GA crashes. I would say most crashes these days, in the US anyway, are from pilot error. This one is definitely one of them. Flying low over a bright lit city it is very challenging to pick out traffic. I find it suspect that the helo crew was using NVGs at the time of the crash. The overall sortie may have been NVG training, but that doesn't mean they use them from takeoff to landing. They would be useless and not even needed a couple of hundred feet over city lights.

This is a tragic accident, but they happen. I absolutely detest the blame game and conspiracy crap. Investigations take time, and the public always want to hang someone today. And of course it all generates clicks for the media, so on it goes.


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[cockerpunk]

Edit: No it is not. Condolences to you friend. I know the drill unfortunately.


with reports coming out now, sounds like the ATC was overworked, and even at the best of times this was a tricky flight path to fly.

its tragic, friend of friend turns out was on the helicopter. i didnt know them, but its closer than you'd think. that hits home.

[HobieMarty]

https://youtu.be/n9mAUks0krI?si=66MEb5tcsIJjd9Ho

This is a very good analysis of the tragic event.

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[HobieMarty]

https://youtu.be/X3PtOdR_VCc?si=3JDR-e8sWUyYFvNm

Another good analysis and explanation of the collision.
I can not understand why the air space is allowed to be so congested and flight patterns only separated by a couple hundred feet. Hindsight is 20/20, but come on, this accident was bound to happen, and I am surprised that it hadn't happened before now.
Condolences to all who were involved and to those that lost their lives, may you all Rest In Peace.

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[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by URY914

Tim, what percentage of air mishaps are a result of pilot error?

Probably 50-70%?

[rfuerst911sc]

Has anyone seen any reports on how fast the helo was going ? I would think that not only is there a height limit ( 200 ' ) but maybe a speed limit ? Or should there be a speed limit for a helo ?

Common sense says visual decisions at 20 mph vs 200 mph are quite different . But I have zero expertise.

[HobieMarty]

In one of the videos I posted, the closing rates and speeds of both aircraft are discussed.

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[flipper35]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

Has anyone seen any reports on how fast the helo was going ? I would think that not only is there a height limit ( 200 ' ) but maybe a speed limit ? Or should there be a speed limit for a helo ?

Common sense says visual decisions at 20 mph vs 200 mph are quite different . But I have zero expertise.

Helos are already at risk of a bird strike from behind!

Helo pilot sounded a bit snippy. Who knows if he really had the traffic in sight at any point in time.

[Baz]

The deadly D.C. plane crash salvage efforts continued on Tuesday. Officials said remains from all 67 victims have been recovered. Meanwhile, a cockpit voice recorder was recovered from a separate Pennsylvania plane crash. CBS News senior transportation correspondent Kris Van Cleave reports.

[Baz]

[rfuerst911sc]

The helicopters " advanced tracking system " was turned off per this article . That can't be good .

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/02/06/washington-plane-helicopter-crash-recovery-updates/78280776007/

[KFC911]

I just saw that the pilots were wearing night vision goggles... after what little I know from you guys who know stuff ... why?

WTF were "they" training for ... something they should not be doing to begin with?

This is all on the Blackhawk imo.... the ATC didn't screw up.... those pilots did.

But they were human ... it happens ... still tragic.

[greglepore]

NTSB brief today was interesting...data on fdr from barometric altimeter invalid, and they don't yet know what that means. Radar altimeter for helo 271 at impact. Last transmission from atc to pass to rear stepped on.
Not sure why the primary flight instrument is baro altimeter rather than radar as NTSB claims.
NVG confirmed.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by greglepore

NTSB brief today was interesting...data on fdr from barometric altimeter invalid, and they don't yet know what that means. Radar altimeter for helo 271 at impact. Last transmission from atc to pass to rear stepped on.
Not sure why the primary flight instrument is baro altimeter rather than radar as NTSB claims.

Here is a picture of a UH-60L Blackhawk cockpit...I am NOT sure if it tracks with the cockpit on the Blackhawk that was involved, but the picture is probably close. There may have been VIP upgrades.



I have over 500 hours in the 60L because I was the head of flight ops for the government at the Sikorsky factory. Also, the SH-60B I flew in the Navy was very similar in terms of presentation of flight data to the pilots.

I am also not sure which model of NVG they were flying but typically you look under the googles for flight references.

In the picture you can see the master caution panel with amber lights. Next to the MCP on the right are the Vertical Instrumentation Displays (VIDS) for the various dynamic components...when running, they are color coded green, yellow and red. I love me some VIDS.

To the left of the MCP is the, at least in the Navy, co-pilots VIDs for power, NR and other secret stuff that makes helicopters fly. Bothpilots have the same information displayed, also color coded.

Then, in front of each pilot are the aircraft nav, baro, radar and other instruments for flight orientation.

The instrument "scan" in a 60L is very easy and basic, even on NVGs.

If anyone knows the exact model of 60L, I'd love to know.

[greglepore]

I'd be more curious as to how much the nvg's interfere with perph vision. I don't doubt they could easily look under at the panel, and yeah, that's an easy panel to scan.
NTSB did indicate that there's nothing on the cvr to indicate that the Blackhawk crew knew a collision was immanent at any point. You'd think there'd at least be some expletive a second before.
I know speculation isn't fair, but given the mystery right turn a few seconds prior to the collision and the nvg's, I wonder if there was momentary disorientation as to which way was "behind".

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by greglepore

I'd be more curious as to how much the nvg's interfere with perph vision. I don't doubt they could easily look under at the panel, and yeah, that's an easy panel to scan.

Looking under the NVGs was standard practice. Again, that was when I was flying them.



https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=nvg+field+of+view&fr=yhs-infospace-076&type=ud-c-us--s-p-uw5bbolv--exp-none--subid-fk6j226i&hspart=infospace&hsimp=yhs-076&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fspecopsgear.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F12%2Fnvg-field-of-view.jpg#id=0&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Faerossurance.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F09%2Fnvg-lateral-fov.jpg&action=click

The "scan" with NVGs is done, given the restricted Field of View, a lot more with head movement than a normal, day or night scan un-added by NVGs.

[Rikao4]

done the goggles..
transitioned lots of airfields..
always crew of 4...
and remember a few times that extra set of eyes..
made the difference..

Rika