Electrician, please help with this breaker panel

[Pazuzu]

I'm running power for a client's observatory. It's on a 100 acre ranch. This breaker panel is the closest power, so I want to tap off of it and run 125 feet of direct burial 8/2 to the building.
Can you tell me what kind of breaker I need to put in this panel? It's Square D, outdoor obviously. I want 40-50 amps, single breaker and I'll be putting in a 6 slot subpanel in he building.

Does anyone recognize this panel, and what kind of breaker I would need? I've never installed a breaker before, but I understand the concept.

Question 2 is, since I need to run this while the power is live, do I put the breaker in place first and then stab the wire in, or do I put the wire in the breaker then put everything into place at once?

[dad911]

Single breaker? Not 220 to the new subpanel? Ground & neutral need to be seperated in a sub panel, not combined, with the ground bonded to the enclosure, the neutral isolated from the enclosure. I you want 220, you need a double pole breaker and 3 wire. See image below.
#8 is not enough for 50 amp, and may be marginal for 40 over 100'



PM sent.

[Pazuzu]

This is a kludged setup for sure.
The observatory will be using *maybe* 10-15 amps ever, and rarely. Like, one day a week. Computer, some LED lights, a portable AC unit. Biggest draw will be the motor that opens the roof, 7 amps for 2 minutes, twice a night, once a week, So, 40 amps is WAY over the requirement.

I want to put a single breaker on the left leg. The two 100 amp breakers currently feed two (honest to god) skeet shooting buildings and some MASSIVE LED spot lights. NONE of that is actually being used, it all belonged to the previous owner.


This is 100 acres of wooded ranch, no one cares about code.

Yes, the meter is next to this. Coming out of this box is the two 100 amp feeds, a 20 amp feed down into conduit that feeds an outlet at a picnic site 30 feet away, and 20 amp breaker feeding an outlet on the back side of this box.

I *hoped* to install a 40-50 amp breaker in this box, feeding a direct burial line into a subpanel like this:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-100-Amp-6-Spaces-12-Circuit-Main-Lug-Load-Center/3134331

Then a few romex lines feeding some outlets and some LED lights.
I picked that box with 6 spots because it was requested that I put a surge arrester in there, which takes 2 slots.

Edit: Also, I don't thing there is a main disconnect. It's clearly not in this box, and the meter as far as I remember is just a meter. That's why I mentioned doing this install while hot, because I don't know how to make it not hot!

[cabmandone]

Looks like a Square D QO panel. There is no main disconnect. That panel is a subfeed panel hot from the meter. The "normal" setup would be meter, disconnect, then branch off. BTW, I'm not an electrician.

[schwarz633]

Strange that there's no main breaker. I'd like to see a complete picture of the meter socket to the right. Is this a utility owned meter or customer owned? You can always pull the meter to de-energize the panel.

The neutral wire from the meter socket is too small. I would expect to see more ground wires with PVC conduit. This is a mess.

[Dpmulvan]

You install the breaker, wire it and then turn it on. If you have zero experience don’t try to fiddle around installing a breaker on a hot panel.

[javadog]

I'd suggest running 3 conductor wire to the sub panel.

I'd probably pull the meter and redo this installation to include a disconnect, while I was messing with it.

Lots of basic electrical work safety videos on the tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Crmfnz-KgI

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Dpmulvan

You install the breaker, wire it and then turn it on. If you have zero experience don’t try to fiddle around installing a breaker on a hot panel.

+1 At his level of experience I would suggest burying the cable and getting a friendly electrician to do the rest. I say “friendly” because he might get someone who insists on redoing the whole mess.

[javadog]

DYI electrical opens up a whole can of worms.

Direct burying the cable... then the temptation to put it in conduit from the panel to below grade, then....

[Scott Douglas]

This is exactly the type of thing that got my cousin electrocuted back in the '70's while he was fishing on a private lake. He reached up and touched an aluminum bridge going over part of the lake. Apparently something wasn't wired correctly or to 'code' and it killed him.

There's a reason for doing things 'to code'.

[jyl]

My thought is, the client hired you as a telescope builder, not as an electrician. Tell them to hire an electrician and give you power at the telescope location. Once you touch that panel, you are potentially liable for whatever bad thing happens with it later - electrocuted kid, etc.

[Magyar Kiwi]

^^^^ This is very good advice ^^^^^

[Pazuzu]

All taken under advisement, thanks guys. I didn't realize how bad this setup was

[look 171]

It works but by today's standard, aint so good. In the older homes I have worked on over the years, some of them do not have a main shut off in those little 60 amp panels. I personally wouldn't touch it or pull more power from there. Too many hungry lawyers.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

In what application would a panel like this with no shut-off be appropriate?

[dad911]

^^ a sub panel, fed by a panel or meter pan that has a breaker to protect it.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

In what application would a panel like this with no shut-off be appropriate?

I've been looking at that mess for 3 days and I'm still not sure all that's wrong. To answer your question, a sub with 6 or less breakers does not require its own disconnect.

But I'm looking at the double tapped neutral line feed, what looks like a neutral and red on a ground bus, the lack of a wire box connector exiting the panel to the rear, why there are 2 neutrals and a hot red going into the small conduit at the bottom, and IDK what else.

That is a panel that I would not touch. Besides, the OP demonstrates an absolute lack of electrical knowledge with his 50 amp, 120v wire circuit that is to be divided up in another sub downline.

People just don't do that.

[javadog]

I'd have an electrician replace the entire guts of that panel and rewire it. I'd choose guts that have a main breaker. I'd run two hots, a neutral and a ground in conduit to the new 50 amp sub-panel and run the A/C off of one leg and the rest off the other leg, in an attempt to balance the legs and reduce the current on the neutral.

My .02.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by javadog

I'd have an electrician replace the entire guts of that panel and rewire it. I'd choose guts that have a main breaker. I'd run two hots, a neutral and a ground in conduit to the new 50 amp sub-panel and run the A/C off of one leg and the rest off the other leg, in an attempt to balance the legs and reduce the current on the neutral.

My .02.

I think you might be on to something. A second subpanel needs a panel, sub or main, that has its own disconnect. Also, being a detached structure, the observatory panel will require a main breaker as well if I'm reading the code correctly.

The point is there is too much wrong in the existing panel.

[javadog]

I agree, better to fix it no, rather than add to the misery.

No idea what panel is installed or whether parts are still available. Not going to spend any time looking at it.

But. a licensed electrician could sort it out. Change the guts, change the whole panel, add a disconnect and fix the deficiencies in that panel... I'll leave the what and how up to the OP and his electrician. Not a big deal to fix it; I had guys I used to use that could sort that out in a morning and be on to lunch...