Where have all the gentlemen gone?
 

Hey ya'll.....

Well, my buddy was totally stoked on the 88 Carrera he purchased (or so he thought) at the German Autofest.

The seller seemed cool and honest (ahem) and refused to take a deposit on the car, so the deal was made on a handshake. My buddy offered to write a check on the spot, but again, the seller refused indicating the funds could not be verified late Sunday afternoon. Arrangements were made for the seller to bring the car up today after my buddy had his bank call and verify a cashiers check had been made out to the guy.

Well, the seller just called my buddy and has sold the car to another party!! Seems he got a better offer, or one of the previous buyers decided they wanted the car afterall. I guess there is nothing preventing this from happening, but damn, what happened to people keeping their word and being honest? Silver lining? There *may* have been some hidden issues with the car, hence, the *ahem* after my mention of honest above cuz I asked specific questions and it appears the answers were lies. Indeed, where have all the gentlemen gone?

Buddy is still looking for a nice SC or Carrera, but he knows he probably won't get another deal like this one. Maybe it was too good to be true. Let me know if you have a car for sale in the SoCal area, prefer North LA, Santa Barbara area.

-B

I don't know about in your country, but here in NZ, that is a contract.

Thats totally wrong! I looked at the original post and agreed that your neighboor was going to get a great deal. But if the seller is not honest, better find it out now than a couple of weeks later. Good luck on your search.

I've never understood this, but then I may live in a different world. My field is labor relations, and in my profession, if your handshake ever once fails in its promises, you'll be looking for an entire new carreer. For example, it is widely known that my boss' handshake is substantially more reliable than a written contract. Mine's not bad either.

You do what ya say yer gonna do. That's the Code of the West.

bb80sc, that's rough. I can imagine your friend's excitement and frustration.

Similar thing happened to us recently with a private party X5 we were to buy. We agreed on a price and set up a time to come get the car. The seller called minutes before we were to pick it up, and said he needed the car for an 800 mile trip, and that it would still be a good deal when he got back in a couple weeks. He acted like we owed him something, and never even apologized for backing out of the deal.

Some people just have no courtesy.

The right 911 will come along for him, I hope.

There's an old saying about not just buying the car, but buying the previous owner.

Based on his lack of integrity, I'd be pretty sure the car itself was less than honest.

We buy & sell a lot of cars here and the seller's character tells you a lot.

It's so much EASIER being honest.

When I was in college, I made an admittedly low offer on a cheap car. It was all I could afford. The seller was a nice old man. He told me he would sell me the car at my price if I came up with the cash by the next weekend, but he would sell to a higher bidder if another offer came up. I was not offended at all when he called me to tell me the car was sold. Had I arrived with money in hand and found the car gone, I would have been pissed.

Two months ago when I first started looking for a 911 I came across a really nice pearl white '84 coupe. It had 84 k and was really nice. The guy was a Porsche fanatic and knew alot about these cars. He was also a PCA member. Well we negotiated and settled on a price.

He was 3 hours from me so I let him set up the details on the PPi. The day before the inspection I asked for the vin # so I could run a carfax, you know just due diligence. He said no problem and gave it to me. Later I got home and pulled the carfax. This thing had 129k on it three years ago according to DMV records!

I called the jerk up and told him what I just found out and he goes 'oh yeah I changed the odometer a couple of years ago it does have a lot more miles'. I was stunned.

He even had run the car on EBay with that mileage. After I caught him his add on PCA suddenly changed from 84k to 129k and the price dropped. Of course I reported all of this to carfax.

When buying a used car trust no one.

There aren't many gentlemen left. Something similar happened to me about three years ago; I test drove an '84 that ran out real nice but had a couple small body and interior issues. We agreed on a price on a Sunday afternoon, I called (as agreed) Monday evening to arrange payment and delivery. He told me the car had been sold, I said "yes, I know, I bought it yesterday" which kind of stopped him for a moment, then he said "I mean I sold it to someone else". When I asked him "why?". He didn't really have an answer, just said it's been sold. Two weeks later I found and bought an SC, a MUCH nicer condition car, less miles, equipped the way I wanted, in a color I liked better, with NO issues. Some clouds do have a silver lining.

Jerry M
'78 SC

There are plenty of nice cars out there for your friend to choose from Brad. Don't worry, this one just wasn't THE ONE.....know what I'm saying? THE ONE will be the car he will bring home, and put in his garage.

Things happen for a reason. Maybe your friend got lucky.

'

I wish that were true for all. At least many people perceive the effort of being honest harder than just telling lies. But I know what you mean, lies have a way of catching up. In the long run, it is easier to be honest.

Uh...if it's not on paper, it didn't happen. Honesty schmonesty. Paper, with signature, guarantees you the sale.

There is plenty of room for honesty elsewhere - but if someone else offered him $1,000 over what your friend did, well, guess what.

Probably for the best, I agree with Mark. If your friend didn't insist on a deposit and get a deposit reciept on a bill of sale, it's all up to how honest the seller is after that.....my.02

Well, that may be fine and dandy in your world, but in my world honesty and trust count for a lot.

Anyway, it appears that my buddy may be better off....the Internet makes the world a smaller place, and it's amazing how quickly news travels and who knows who....if you catch my drift.

-B

Brad, Sorry to hear this, it sounded like a killer deal. But then again, maybe not. When I bought my SC, I negotiated a price with the seller over the phone, offered a $1000 deposit until the next week when I'd have the cash, but he told me that deposit wasn't necessary as long as I was sure that I wanted it. He held the car for me, and I bought it as agreed. He was a stand-up guy.

As it turns out, I might be selling my SC, message me off the board if interested. :cool:

That sucks but the right one will come along for him, sounds like it might be around the corner now.

A verbal agreement is a law binding contract, you’d just have to try and prove it, good luck. I’ve had to go through w/ deals that I didn’t really want to b/c I gave someone my word. It never bothers me, I like to think that my word is worth something. If I’m not sure about something I try to tell people up front and communicate w/ them during the decision making process, and always give them the final decision so their not left hanging. It’s just about doing the right thing.

Thanks for the kind words guys. Karma can be a b*tch!

I'll bet he will be surprised when he opens the email I sent him....especially since he didn't give out his email address :)

Denis, send me some details on your ride.

-B

if Denis is selling his car (which would be a bummer for Denis), your friend would be getting a sweet ride. That thing was fast and tight even before the rebuild. I can only imagine now...

When I bought my car long distance in NC, I offered a deposit to hold the car until the PPI checked out and I could get there.

Seller said no, he would rather have my word than a deposit.

BB80SC...bummer, but then, there's far worse, so don't feel bad about this...
I suggest, now you have his email, to send this "gent" a link to this thread...I think most people ARE sensitive to "peer opinion". Conscience may keep gnawing away at him for the rest of his life (I remember incidents/things I did wrong in the past! Or am I being naive?).

I'm here visiting from rennlist, this is actually my first post here on Pelican….I’m the so called “bad Guy” that didn’t sell the car to Brad’s friend. Every story has two sides and I would appreciate if you guys would listen to my side of the story and hear what I have to say.

I have been aggressively trying to sell my car for the past three months. I was asking a high price, but kept on lowering the price to attract buyer. I had in various magazines and classifieds. I got many people come in and look at my car. Some guys that came where really friendly and were fellow p-car enthusiast and some were just dreamers looking for a free test drive. I’m sure all of you know selling a used car isn’t the funniest experience. I even had people come in and give me deposits on the car and flake out.

So I decided to take my car out to the German auto fest and see what kind of bite I could get. At the end of the day Brad and his buddy approached me and wanted to know about the car. To make a long story short, we agreed on a price and decided I would deliver the car to his house sometime this week. He wanted to pay me by personal check on Sunday, but I don’t think anyone in their right mind would take a personal check from a complete stranger that you met 30 mins ago. So I told them I needed a cashiers check. They told me they would have it ready when I delivered the car.

So on Tuesday, the guy that had given me a deposit (who flaked and told me he didn’t want the car) last week calls me and says he is coming in a hour to pay me CASH. I guess under Californian law, all car deposits car refundable. So had to either give this guy his cash back and sell the car to brad’s friend less $250 and then drive 60 miles to deliver the car or wait an hour and have the cash in my hand. I’m pretty sure Brad’s buddy was gonna buy the car, but I did not have a contract nor cash from him.

So brad is all upset now, which I understand, and goes on rennlist and calls me a slime ball. Real class act!..........and makes accusations of my car of not being 100%. Nostatic was gonna buy my car a year ago, so you can ask him how clean of a 911 I had.

If you have doubts about my car, aren’t you glad u didn’t buy it.

Same sort of thing happened to me - for my sins I was looking at at 944 Cab (it was all I could afford) - slime ball seller sold it after agreeing deal with me and after I sent a cheque for deposit!

Silver lining - I bought the best 911 I could find (with more money than I had) and it's the best thing I ever did!

Have your ***** and move on - there are great cars out there they just take some finding

Hope you get one soon

Well, this is developing into a very interesting thread.
"Disclaimer" What I say is my opinion, and I am not claiming to be a judge, what I write is in good faith and expresses how I "feel".

The fact that agent325 has come into this thread to respond speaks favorably as regards this person's "moral" status: he is not hiding and is facing the criticism, which is a courageous, and necessary, act on his part. It also provides all us us on this public board the opportunity of listening to "the other side", and to possibly review the nasties that may have been uttered. (Gosh it is dangerous/stupid to express a position without knowing both sides' stories!.)
If I understand agent325 correctly, he'd accepted some person's deposit on a sale of his car. This buyer then advised the seller that he would not take the car, after all. By stating this, he lost his rights to claim the purchase for him. (I leave in the middle as to whether the deposit is refundable or not). Hence, the seller is free to sell to any one else.
At the German auto fest, the seller in fact made exactly such an agreement with bb80sc's buddy. The apparently agreed that the car would be delivered on tuesday, and paid for in cash. Then, if I understand well, the guy who'd given a deposit came back on his decision and said he'd take the car, after all.
Mmmm.... I opine that agent325 has made a mistake. He put more emphasis on his convenience (getting the cash within one hour as against having to drive 60 miles). He has not kept his promise and failed to deliver.
I would think it be better this thread be closed before it comes to blows. I would hope that bb80sc's buddy can accept that the world is far from perfect, without claiming (what is his loss? none, except his feelings...)
I think agent325 should offer apologies to bb80sc's buddy, and both parties agree that they are ... gentlemen. The alternate is too dire to consider.

Paul,

Well stated and done!



Agent325,

I can't really blame you taking a bird in one hand as opposed to 2 in the bush.


For the rest,

Let's not forget that for every bad experience in this post, there are other good ones. As Agent said, there are 2 sides to a coin.

Doesn't a contract require some consideration given by both parties? In this case, the seller agreed to hold the car, but the buyer only agreed to a future full payment. Also, the handshake occurred on Sunday and the transaction was slated for Tuesday. Why not Monday?

Sounds like more of a misunderstanding. No appearance of funny business on the seller's part.

Bob

I figured there was more to this story than what was stated in the first post. I have bought and sold many special interest cars and bikes over the years and I have to say I always enjoy being the buyer way more than being the seller. As a seller you frequently find that every flake in the world shows up on your doorstep. Unfortunately many potential buyers will say anything with no intention or ability to perform, and as a seller it's almost impossible to differentiate who's "real" and who's a BSer within 15 minutes of meeting them. My rule is the first guy with cash in hand gets the vehicle and I tell that up front to anyone who makes an offer.

No cash traded hands, no paperwork was completed, SO no deal was made, period. If you have sold any vehicles in the past you know how many potential buyers give you lots of BS. I'll be by in the morning with cash, I'll see you next tuesday with the money, etc. etc. <br>The seller more than likely figured this was one more round of Horse Sh_t. Buying and selling has nothing to do with being a gentleman. If your a buyer you want as much as your money can buy, if your a seller you want as much money for the item your selling as fast as you can get it. Other than selling items to friends and family members, this is always true.

The intent of this thread was not to bash anyone. I stated the facts and I am/was mainly upset over the way the whole deal was handled.

My buddy offered to give a deposit, he also wanted to wrap up the deal on Monday. In fact, Agent and my buddy tried to find an open bank on Sunday to verify funds for the personal check. This sounds like due diligence to me. Although, Embs, you are correct, no cash traded hands. However, the reason I started this thread was due to an integrity issue, I never claimed it to be financial.

As far as my 'slime ball' comment on Rennlist, I have apologized to Agent.

As far as commenting that his car was not 100%, I have reason to believe otherwise and am entitled to my own opinion. I have not, and will not open that up for discussion.

Please consider this thread closed and chalk it up to lessons learned.....on both sides. Currently looking for a silver lining :)

I guess the lesson here is that if you intend to sell the car to the first person with cash, you should say so up front.

I hope I am not in the minority thinking that personal integrity is a very simple and clear cut concept. If you agree to do something, you do it, fail trying, or ask the other party to release you from your obligation (and if they don't honor your request, you are still obligated).

Contracts, money changing hands and solemn oaths are mere formalities to someone of integrity. Someone who values their word does not enter into agreements lightly.

off soapbox,
Chris

Exactly, Chris Bennet.
ONE word.

I'm in agreement with Brad, Paul and Chris. A guy offers to buy my car I say ok. We agree to the details. That is a done deal unless I say the first one to put real money in my hands gets the car. That is not what happened here.

Selling a car can get real dicey as many of us know.

I've bitten my lip many a time after agreeing to sell a car and then getting a higher cash offer....but that's where it stayed...an offer. I always say that If the deal falls through I'll call them back.

Oh well, experiences like this just made me a better negotiator.

Kurt, that's a very magnanmous point of view, but it's not really a "done deal" until the potential buyer performs by actually producing payment, is it? By definition, the deal isn't "done'. I can't tell you how many times I've had a "gentlemen's agreement" and the other party has failed to perform. That's why I don't consider a car sold until I have cash in hand. All other offers will be considered up to that point. I am willing to start a waiting list if the first guy seems genuine, but that guy has to perform in a reasonable amount of time or it goes to the next guy.

But it sounds like we are saying the same thing. If you think the guy is "genuine" you give him a reasonable amount of time to perform his end of the deal. If a guy offers to buy my car on Sunday and sounds genuine, I think it is more than reasonable to make a deal for the exchange of car and money to take place 2-3 days later. If someone comes along in the meantime with cash money in hand I wouldn't take the money. I would offer to give them first chance to buy the car if the deal falls through with the first buyer. The reason why? I gave the first buyer my word that I would sell him the car. Now if the first buyer fails to live up to his end of the bargain then we no longer have a deal and I can then sell my car to the second buyer.

Cash, a$$ or grass.....no free rides until something changes hands....the guy SHOULD have mentioned that he STILL had a deposit though.

He did indicate that he had two buyers flake and he retained their *non-refundable* deposit. To me, that means there are no other buyers or parties who are still interested. That's why we did everything we could to reassure the seller that we were not flakey :)

This would have been so easy to do the right way!

You tell the first buyer that he has surrendered his claim to the car and you have another buyer. IF the second buyer flakes out, I will call you and we will do business.

It seems everyones integrity has a price. In this case it was $250 and a 60 mile drive.

I first would like to clear up that there are no more hard feeling between me and brad, I think we cleared it up.

On the other hand you dont know how many hand shakes and "I call you in two days to set up a PPI" I have gotten in the past two months. I Know I gave Brad and his buddy my word, but Cash is cash.

If brad's buddy were to call me back and say "hey I couldn't come up with the cash or I found another car" ( I kinda doubt he would have done that) I still would be sitting on my car. I had an oppurtunity to sell the car and I did, I'm sure most of you would have done the same!

If I had gotten a cash deposit or a written contrat, this would be a different story.