conspiracy theory or stoopid terrorists?
 

So consider 2600 homes lost, 600K acres burned, 20 dead, $3Billion is losses. Wouldn't a terrorist be happy with that kind of result? If they had half a brain, 20 people with 20 cars and 20 flares could have burned half the state paralyzed the 6th largest economy in the world. Cheap, low tech, low risk, indefensible, high payoff.

So, are they (the terrorists) just dumb? Only want "big" public spectacles? Or is it as a friend of mine says...there isn't a huge network of organized terrorists in the US...instead they are a figment of the administrations imagination...a convenient boogieman.

Who says it WASN"T them?????

ditto
This last spring there was a local news story suggested that forests would be targets.

The story attempted to put people at ease by noting that the Japanese, during WW2, did just that, along the west coast (Oregon, I believe) but was rather ineffective.

I never said it wasn't...but if it wasn't, shouldn't it? Couldn't? Wouldn't?

I'm awash in contractions...

one thing. if it WAS terrorists, they'd have claimed it by now ;)

enter; conspiracy theory.

did any group claim responsibility for 9/11?

certainly. all the way to the point of impact

I remember saying at the beginning of the Osama hunt in Afghanistan that the best thing the Afghanis could do would be to cut him up and feed him to the Camels. It would drive the Americans nuts to never find him.

Ditto for Saddam.

If they declared or claimed the forests, they would be showing their hand, and we'd be making it harder next time..

I know this is one of those threads that no one is sure about.

Bartender!!!! Another Beer!

Hmmm, good question. Did Jack Olsen ask for someone to illegally copy and scan the article of BB2 ? ( I think you will find your answer there ;) )

But I think I get your point; they're trying to kill us with little care for credits.

Your contractions are about 5 seconds apart!

shall we see how far dilated the patient is?? (as he snaps on a set of surgical gloves)

I have to agree with Nostatic: all these fires started at about the same time in different places are highly suspicious, and could have been the result of a coordinated action, very much like the hijackings of 9/11. On the other hand, it also suggests how vulnerable any country is, and will ever be, to motivated terrorists. Unless we want to live in a society similar to that described in 1984 from Geroge Orwell, with totally closed borders, a chip implanted in each lawful citizen for GPS tracking and analysis of all our actions by a centralized computer. Just realize that it would take only a couple of letters filled with flour sent in strategic locations to totally paralyse the country again. So far, there has been more terrorsim in the middle east, where american presence upsets the locals. Does it mean that they cannot attack the homeland due to the outstanding job of Rumsfeld, Ashcroft and Co. ? Gimme a break...

Aurel

No - the fires were not a "terrorist" act.

Fires don't scare people enough - they move too slow, seem like they can just be "put out" and in this day and age, it's a weak weapon.

You all do realize there are no actual "terrorists", right?

Let me put it this way - the fires are real because they are not "scary" enough. ANYTHING that happens in the US is meant to scare the public into the 1984-ish lifestlye Aurel mentioned above.

Why would "they" start fires when they plan on dropping a nuke on a major US city within the next two years?

Nuke = giving up the freedoms 9/11 couldn't take away.

Then the threat of WWIII will arise after some country tries to "take on" the US in an all-out Battle Royal, this ='s even more freedoms being given up in the name of protection.

Anyone really look at the Patriot Act? Do you know there is a section that states "Use of ANY weapon will be seen as a Terrorist attack". It's tucked in there....go look. Seems to me everyone could be a Terrorist, right.....? How do they stop it???? How will America ever be safe?????

It's called Biometrics and ID chips folks, don't fool yourselves.

The rich run the world, not the "Governments". Satan is here in full-effect and we all will be his byacthes soon!

Jeff (944SBoyeee)

Hey, are these implantable chips with GPS going to have On-Star capability? Because if they do, then I won't get that service in my next new car.

So let me get this straight nostatic. If the fires weren't set by terrorists, then that proves that there are no terrorists....I think there must have been a few fields of weed that went up in smoke near your residence.

You make a good point 944SBoyee: the psychological impact of the fires is not as strong as something that people cannot understand, like nuke, bio or chem attacks.
Thinking about it, those fires may even be a good thing for California, with all the construction jobs they will create. Humm, was that Schwarzenegger`s method to bring business back to California ? (just kidding).

When you say that Satan is here in full effect, I will tell you that I do not beleive in Satan. At least, not as a power trying to fight God. Satan is just the sum of all our fears, and by definition, anything that propagates fear is satanic. So, terrorism is satanic, but a media that propagates the fear of terrorism is satanic as well. Terrorism would have no impact if it was not given so much publicity. Satan is very human indeed.

Aurel

I'm just asking the question...I didn't say "if P then Q". Considering the now questionable "data" used to take us to war in Iraq, I think questioning the government is not only warranted, but in fact what a responsible citizen should do.

I believe there are terrorists (I think 9/11 was undertaken by a terrorist group, and not the CIA). But I also believe that the threat of terrorism is being used to slowly disintegrate personal freedoms, placing even more control in the hands of a select few.

A change in our foreign policy would make us a lot safer than any "Patriot" act passed here at home. Just my opinion though...

I have been questioning the whole thing from day one, but since I happen to be french, my opinon has always been considered as garbage, which I have learnt not to be offended about anymore.
:). I could also revive the WMD thread again, but that would be just being silly :D

Aurel

I figure it was the Dems giving Arnie a "welcome to Cali" party. Or maybe Rush snuck out of rehab for a smoke and "ooops..." But a terrorist plot, now THATS a longshot. :)

One question on this concern over the Patriot Act. What's your alternative? I'm not personally a big fan of losing our personal freedoms, but in comparisons to the Democrats reaction to the last attack on US soil (internment camps), this was tame. It's not like Tom Ridge made this decision on his own, I think it was congress that passed it (democratic majority at the time if I remember correctly).

But aside from all that, what was a better alternative? How do you protect 236,000,000 people in a country with open borders where personal freedom is paramount? What would YOU have done? I don't have an outstanding alternative.

To be honest, I am more concerned by the fact that I can't have a smoke in a bar almost anywhere anymore. In CA you can't buy a rifle because somebody determined that it qualifies as "an assault rifle", yet cow feces in a publicly funded museum qualifies as "art". I can't swap out a catalitc converter or unplug an airbag that might kill me, but an illegal alien gets free college. And a license. I have the freedom of speech right up until it "offends" somebody, unless I am a liberal and then EVERYTHING I say is okay and patriotic, even if its anti-American.

Pete

For one thing, I'd quit trying to impose our government and value system on the rest of the world. That would go a lot further towards keeping the American public safe from outside interest than unchecked surveillance and data mining.

I'm VERY happy that people can't smoke in bars or resturants (I end up playing in them, and the few that still allow smoking make for a miserable evening), and see no reason for people to own automatic weapons.

Not sure how illegal aliens get free college, but I'll take your word that it is a rampant problem. The license thing is a mixed bag, and I'm not crazy about it either. As for freedom of speech, I don't think liberals have a corner on the market there...the right has plenty of hot air blasting about. And if you want to get labeled as "un-American", dare to say anything negative about homeland security. Although I'm sure this bbs is being scraped daily, so I'm already on their list :rolleyes:

Ok, so terrorism is "our" fault right? Whatever. I guess we are just going to have to disagree on that one. You would have just sent a "sorry for offending you" card to Osama, I guess. I'm more of a peace through superior firepower kind of guy.

As for the rest of it, "freedom" isn't really what you want, unless of course it is something that you agree with. If I own a bar, you don't think it's a problem that I can't allow a legal act. If you only want to play at non-smoking clubs I say more power to you that's your right, but telling me I can't smoke infringes on MY rights.

So, YOU don't see why I would want an "automatic weapon", okay, why would YOU want a car that exceeds the legal speed limit? BTW, it's NOT automatic weapons that are limited by the assault weapon ban, it's based on how they look. But you don't mind that infringement on the second amendment. I do.

The college issue is happening in Texas right now, I wonder how long it takes before it creeps over to CA? But I don't live in Texas, and I finished college more than ......... a long time ago, so it doesn't "affect" me.

Well, if being critical of the government about ANYTHING gets you blacklisted, I'm afraid I'm right after you on the "list", but my point was more about being able to tell a joke (as an example) anywhere it seems without "offending" someone. I happen to support EVERYBODY'S right to free speech even (especially) if I don't agree with it. Imagine the boredom if we all said the same thing.

BTW how do you get that "rolling the eyes" smiley face? I like that one.

Pete

Now hold on right there, buddy.

How am I supposed to release my frustration with Microsoft products if I can't own automatic weapons???

Seems like you are all for limiting people's personal freedom.

Aurel, your opinion is garbage just because you're French. It's just garbage all by itself.

I'm not going to tell you because you hurt my feelings :p

We'll agree to disagree. I could argue back each and every point (what the 2nd amendment actually meant, being able to do what you want as long as it doesn't harm others, etc), then you'd come back with counter arguments, etc. Hopeless morass.

btw, I'm pissed as Osama too, since he didn't send me a card for my b-day...

2nd hand smoke kills people. I should be able to be in a public place without having my health threatened. Just like I can't yell "fire" in a movie theater, or spray acid around because I like to and have "freedom."

There are limits to personal freedom, and a big fat gray area. You think automatic weapons, cigarettes, and the CIA tracking credit card data is OK. I don't. We agree to disagree.

Well, if you are ever interested in a spirited debate on any of the above topics, let me know. I will TRY not to hurt your feelings again.

BTW, is there any evidence of second hand smoke being dangerous, or is it still just speculation? And if you ever get the opportunity to fire off a couple of rounds out of an automatic weapon, you might get a kick out of it. Be carefiul though, it's kind of like skydiving, it's very addictive.

Pete

That is a great relief to hear that from you, Wackruse. At some point, I thought you did not like the french. But now, I know it is just because I am just plain dumb. I only the world could count more enlighters like yourself, it would be such a better place ! :D

Aurel

Nope...can't do it. I know you'd hurt my feelings...then I'd have to see my therapist more...then I'd have less money to keep my 911 running. Then I'd get depressed, and have to start on Zoloft, then find a support group...yada yada...

speaking as a ph.d. biochemist who has sorted through some of the data and has a number of colleagues who are involved in major public health projects, I can say that the data indicates that 2nd hand smoke is indeed a real threat.

As for guns, I'm sure it is fun, but I'll pass. I was almost shot way back when, and since then I have this problem with firearms. Oh now, there you go...you made me dredge up my past, and now I'll have to go back on my meds and see my therapist...

Regarding second hand smoke, it is actually more dangerous than for the smoker, because the second-hander does not benefit from a filter (assuming same exposure for both).

Aurel

By buying a Mac ;)

Although that perhaps doesn't vent much frustration. I vote a special dispensation for WMD as related to MS products.

..........except, if I am inhaling "your" smoke, it has theoretically been filtered twice, once by the filter and once by you. I am of course not allowing for the smoke coming off of the end of the cig. I asked about some factual information, not to dispute it, but because I have never seen anything official. The concept of "second hand smoke" makes sense, I just haven't ever seen it proven.

I am, for the record NOT a smoker. I occaisionally smoke a pack when I am out drinking as I enjoy it, but I don't smoke regularly. I, like most people don't want smoke blown in my face while I am eating a steak (or tofu, whatever you "healthy" guys eat) and if a place is too smoky, I just don't go there. My ex-wife was VERY allergic to smoke, so we had to be careful about where we went, but even she was against outlawing it. It should be up to the individual, be it the customer or the proprietor.

Petehttp://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/uzi.gif

fwiw my wife and I bbq'd up a very nice NY cut Saturday night...not a bit of tofu in sight.

There is some leeway...owner operated bars can allow smoking (I play regularly in one). Something to do with not exposing other employees to smoke...not sure on the details.

After living in California all my life, I"m always taken aback when going to other parts of the country where smoking is allowed in public places. As an ex-smoker, I'm actually pretty militant about not having someone around me smoking...especially if food is involved. But that's one reason I like living in the republik of Kalifornia...all these crazy liberal laws and such.

Don't worry Aurel, I still hate the French.

Nostatic -- I agree that we disagree. The Patriot Act is a law passed by both houses of congress, signed by the President of the U.S. and overseen by the Supreme court of the US. Can you honestly name another process on this planet that can safeguard your freedom better than that?

yes...the imperial republic of Freedonia. Clearly superior. And funnier.

Opportunistic legislation passed by nervous politicians during a fearful public state of panic. Not the ideal environment for a good law now matter what the system. But, now we work within the system to change it if we don't like it.

http://www.whyaduck.com/cards/harpo4.jpg

Bingo. With the balance of power about as even as ever, abuses of power (if that's how you'd care to describe it), will not last long. And actually, the Patriotic Act has an expiration date. How long do the batteries in those brain implants last?

I forgot how much you liberals love a good monarchy....:D

A MAC?

http://www.mac10.org/macsonly.html

That was almost too easy. ;)

Weren't the McCarthy hearings sanctioned by all entities? I believe in retrospect that was a rather black period in our "free" society. I believe this could be another such scenario, but I could be wrong. Time will tell...

one of my ex...umm...."colleagues" had a mac10. He loved it. Lots of "muhahahahaha".

Hearings are just hearings, they are not law. Neither the judicial nor the executive branch have any say over legislative hearings.

(You're not going to say that there weren't any communists either.... are you?)

IMHO the only "black" part of thet era was how deeply the communist party had infiltrated our own government. As it turns out, McCarthy's only mistake was that he didn't know it went as deep as it really did. To look back on that situation with the impression that McCarthy was somehow out of line is really too bad. Extraortinary times require extraordinary measures.