does anyone get the feeling...

[speeder]

We might have a point of agreement!!

Break out the and call the strippers!! Yeah, boy!

I consider market-driven capitalism to be like a football game that everyone should be able to play, even gimps. They might not score as much as Troy Aikman, but they can be the goal post or something.

*Reaching a little w/ my analogy here, but bear w/ me. We liberals are not as good at analogies.*

With no rules, on the first play of the game Ray Lewis, (or Donald Trump or Dick Cheney), is going to rip your head off, ***** down your neck, then eat all of your food and f**k your wife. One less competitor and one more wife for him, 1st and ten at goal. How do you like our game so far? Let's play again!

I think that once I refine my "art of analogy", we might find that we all have more in common than we thought, redneck and pinko alike, North and South, tree-hugger and chopper, etc, etc...

[350HP930]

Whats the matter with you speeder, now you are suggesting football engineering?

Engineering is the tool of the devil you know, 666 and all that kind of stuff . . .

Originally posted by 350HP930
Hmm, a jab against social engineering?

Engineering implies careful calculation and well designed solutions applied to solve known problems.

I guess you would prefer that we build airplanes, buildings and bridges by just guessing at what needs to be done and letting the buiders go at it? If not then why be so opposed to even a modicum of planning and thought going into deciding where society is headed?

Some of you are certainly prime examples that many people who concider themselves to be 'conservative' are actually utopian anarchists.

Ok 350, you've topped yourself.....

Airplanes and buildings are engineered, designed, and built from earth, water, and fire - all of which you can predict and control interactions with a high degree of accuracy.

Social engineering attempts to control groups of individually thinking people and herd them into consistent behavior. Try to overcontrol and you have a revolt.

"The government is best which governs least."
-- Thomas Jefferson

I think that once I refine my "art of analogy", we might find that we all have more in common than we thought, redneck and pinko alike, North and South, tree-hugger and chopper, etc, etc...

I believe you are correct, sir!!!!!

[Superman]

You make me laugh out loud, lendaddy.

In this thread, I tend to side with some folks I normally berate, demonize, out-think, out-type, etc. When we mechanize-farm Africa, we'll have enough food to feed five planets-full. We'll survive. Fint, we were talking about the world, includign the non-Americans. The world is ball-shaped.

On the other hand, and focusing more closely on America, or Amerika....I think Nostatic may be right (he was not talking about the planet's ability to sustain life). And I'm going to try really hard here to eschew politiks, but he's suggesting Brokaw's Greatest Generation was indeed the greatest, and we're coasting downhill now. I think he's right. Some of you are saying that there is opportunity out there and indeed there is. There was broader opportunity for the Greatest Generation. A very high percentage of families had a reasonable expectation for security. Virtually all families had homes, cars, etc. Women could stay home and be moms. Retirement was going to be a soft landing. Today, a smaller percent can reach the brass ring. Retirement is frightening as is health care. Sure, someone can become a bazillionaire today. BFD. When I was born, my parents could afford a house on Beacon Hill in Seattle. My job is WAY more highly-ranked in the job-comparison sweepstakes of today than my Dad's job back then, and I canmnot afford that house. A house within ten minuts' drivign of dntn Seattle is going to cost you a million dollars. So, the resources are getting concentrated in a smaller group, and the larger group is getting a bit miffed about it. In a democracy. So, I think it's an interesting dynamic. Now, if the proletariat can only figure out that it is in control, if it wants to be.

[lendaddy]

"You make me laugh out loud, lendaddy."

Hey, I may be good for something afterall I hope you realize that was my goal.
I too am not worried about the world running out of "resources". When they're gone, they're gone and we'll die. Big whoop. I sincerely doubt any of our children or theirs will see that day You'll certainly go crazy trying to solve problems you cannot comprehend.

[fintstone]

It seems to me that the people most concerned with the perceived "dwindling resources" and want everyone else to take a bus, or dry their clothes on a line, or own a hybrid car....are those who would never consider doing without their own. Much like the elite with armed bodyguards and security systems that push gun legislation for everyone else.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by fintstone
It seems to me that the people most concerned with the perceived "dwindling resources" and want everyone else to take a bus, or dry their clothes on a line, or own a hybrid car....are those who would never consider doing without their own.

when I lived in SF, I rarely drove (except to haul my stuff to gigs). If it was dry, I rode my bike to work, if it rained, I took the bus/train. In LA I can't easily do that. We did however move so that my wife could walk to work. And now she works at home.

I'm not an environmental zeolot, I don't live in a shack, but I have changed certain things about the way I think and live.

Part of the problem harkens back to something I've said time and again: the world isn't black and white. One can be concerned with the plight of society without going to illogical extremes and heading to the nearest stream looking for a rock to clean their clothes on. Recognizing that there is a problem is the first step towards trying to fix it...

[island911]

. . . yeah. . .and getting others to step forward, to clean their clothes on a rock, is the second step. (TIC)

Originally posted by island911
. . . yeah. . .and getting others to step forward, to clean their clothes on a rock, is the second step. (TIC)

WHAT???? No more effin Tide and Neptune washer and dryer???? My life is...over....

[fintstone]

I try to conserve as well. Not necessarily because I give a crap about dwindling resources and the environment, but to save money. I'm a cheap bastard.

[speeder]

That's special.

[fintstone]

Beats being a hypocrit. I will sell my Porsche and buy a hybrid when you do.

[350HP930]

From the envionmental perspective, owning an old porsche beats owning a new SUV any day.

As far as hauling around porsche parts and supplies goes, my $250 escort wagon does as good a job as any mid sized SUV would.

[speeder]

You don't have to give up the Porsche, just start giving a crap about the environment. We will consider that a good start for you.

Originally posted by 350HP930
From the envionmental perspective, owning an old porsche beats owning a new SUV any day.

That is so wrong. These cars throw a lot more crap into to air han any new car or SUV does.

[350HP930]

Do you know how many tons of waste and materials it takes to make just one new SUV? Multiply that by the fact that many of your typical SUV owners are the kind of people who buy a new vehicle every few years since they wouldn't be caught dead driving something 'old'.

On the emissions side, even if the SUV has slightly better emissions it burns double the fuel which more than negates any advantages in that department.

That being said, what do you think the other environmental advantages of owning an SUV over a passenger car are?

[nostatic]

Originally posted by fintstone
Beats being a hypocrit. I will sell my Porsche and buy a hybrid when you do.

why is EVERYTHING black and white with you? Someone can't own an old Porsche and care about the environment? If you give a damn then you have to go to extremes to avoid being a hypocrit?

I suppose it is easy living in a black and white world, but it isn't realistic imho.

Originally posted by 350HP930
Do you know how many tons of waste and materials it takes to make just one new SUV? Multiply that by the fact that many of your typical SUV owners are the kind of people who buy a new vehicle every few years since they wouldn't be caught dead driving something 'old'.

On the emissions side, even if the SUV has slightly better emissions it burns double the fuel which more than negates any advantages in that department.

That being said, what do you think the other environmental advantages of owning an SUV over a passenger car are?

New vehicles burn much cleaner than our 20 year old cars - not just slightly cleaner. It has much less to do with the amount of fuel, but rather the efficient and complete burn of the fuel in the engine.
I'm not defending the environmental benefits of the SUV - I don't now own or need one. I do however drive a full size truck which very closely equals the SUV in bad fuel economy. I find it really interesting that enviromentalists single out the SUV when there many more pickups out there burning just as much fuel. Seems like the "Greens" just need something to be pissed off about.....

[fintstone]

Why compare a 2-seat Porsche with a 7 seat SUV to justify a reasonably low MPG and high emissions vehicle???...Might as well compare it with a bus or train. Why not a Corolla? I find it hypocritical to condemn a person driving an SUV when I drive a Porsche.....A guy in an an Accord could condemn me. It it funny how we each appoint ourselves the ones to decide where the line should be drawn on what "wasting resources" is. Our own toys are always on the "right" side of the line. Personally, I have the most efficient appliances on the market for both water and electrical consumption. I have changed all of my toilets to low flow, etc.....not to save the world, but because it was economically reasonable to do so. When I drive, I drive typically drive the most efficient vehicle I own that will perform the task..that is not currently in use. Once again...economy. I keep my AC and heat set to what I think is my minimum comfort level. Once again, economy..not so there is fuel left for your Porsche or someone's SUV.