does anyone get the feeling...

[nostatic]

ahh...so this whole thing is *someone else's* fault.

Now *that* truly is the current American way...blaming someone else for your troubles. Isn't that what the right complains about on a daily basis? That the public needs to take responsibility for their life and actions, and quit depending on the government to bail them out?

[lendaddy]

I don't think anyone is blaming "the whole thing" on other countries. But I think it is fair to say that Sadaam's regime was proped up and kept strong by the illegal money flowing in from France, Russia, etc... Not to mention the Iraqi citizens who died of hunger since the oil did not indeed get traded for food, but rather $ for Sadaam. Their fault, no. But they certainly contributed to the situation.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by nostatic
ahh...so this whole thing is *someone else's* fault.

Now *that* truly is the current American way...blaming someone else for your troubles. Isn't that what the right complains about on a daily basis? That the public needs to take responsibility for their life and actions, and quit depending on the government to bail them out?

Actually it is just the opposite..the rest of the world, aided by liberal apologists, blame the world's problems on the US.

We did take responsibility. When the world (UN) gave Saddam an ultimatum..then either didn't have the nerve to follow through or was blinded by their own financial interests....the US took responsibility....defeated a dangerous, sadistic regime in spite of the whining crybabies...and are now mopping up the remnants. The war has been very short and cost few lives...and Iraq is already better off and on their way to a democratic government.

[JTO]

Wow! What a thread.

I made some changes recently due to the constant flow of the following into my home: Bad news about every topic from "newspaper", TV "news", and network television. Everything seems to have a hyper crisis tone to it. Everywhere you look there is some stupid program about terror, disease, etc.

Next: constant flow of information about items I must have. Cars, computers, cameras, trips, clothes, food, etc. You don't need that shi% to be happy. Stuff does not satisfy the soul. Walks with your wife and kids, playing tag in the backyard, hearing your children laugh. That stuff feeds the soul and makes you feel content with your life. Buying the big stuff just makes you more dependant on your employer. Falling victim to the advertising machines makes you feel dissatisfied and that you need more.

I turned off the satellite TV, cancelled the paper, and got rid of the newer cars that had payments. My new focus? Spending TIME with the people I love and rejecting what society says I should do; be a consumer.

Thanks,
Troy

[ronin]

sorry fint, logic and reason have no place here. no matter how correct or appropriate

now, now Todd, I really did expect better from you. trying to pin "look what they did to meeeee!" ideology on conservatives??? naaaah! even the most die-hard lib won't go for that one. just look at the '96 DNC. that was one gigantic parade of mysery with the theme being that we need Big Brother to make it all better. but hey, nice try

[RickC]

MSN today has a report about obesity around the world - how it's becoming a problem in all but the poorest African countries. So if the age-old physical problems of food and shelter are vanishing, the great problem must become "what then shall we do?"

At the end of the Pax Romana, Marcus Aurelius, the all-powerful Emperor, turned to a simple Stoic philosophy to make sense of the wealth, luxury and physical temptation around him.

That, or something like it, will need to happen to us here on this planet, or the 1990's/2000's may collapse into the chaos that followed the 1920's.

Such feelings seem at odds with the "American Dream." But I remember a description from Wallace Stegner about the early days of this country - how Europeans acted quickly on the land here, but how at the same time - slowly and quietly - the land and ways of the natives worked on the Europeans too. Hence the National Parks, the environmental movement, and the free spirit of the West.

We are an adaptable species. We should be able to change (with some trouble and resistence, of course) with the situation we've created.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by ronin
now, now Todd, I really did expect better from you. trying to pin "look what they did to meeeee!" ideology on conservatives???

hey, if the shoe fits, you must acquit!

or was it, if the shoe fits, you must not spit.

no, no...that isn't it...hmm, how about:

if the shoe fits, it isn't the one on sale.

no, that is just downright silly. Hmmm...this is tougher than I thought...

[ronin]

lmao!! I knew I could count on you (read: thanks, I needed that - been a long day)

[Superman]

For the record, I would not support legislation regulating the folding of toilet paper. Now that's a visual image I'm uncomfortable with. But seriously, one of the things I keep hearing is this idea that us liberals want to place a regulation on everything. This is a really important national dialogue and I'm very proud we are pursuing it here. I just want to point out that, while we liberals are in fact NOT interested in regulating everything (my most liberal friends are full-on hippies, if you get get my drift....they'd agree that over-regulation is bad), we are also not interested in characterizing government as BAD BAD BAD. Government build roads. I'd guess you're all fairly comfortable with that government role. We also provide libraries, potable water, electric power, yadda yadda. Government to me does not represent the worst in humanity, but rather the best. Yes, there are sad, even disgusting examples of bad government. But the goal is for government to work well for everyone. It is the mechanism we use to achieve goals we can agree on (at least by consensus or majority). It is not "them," unless you've checked out of the process or never were in it. It is "us."

And finally, Troy is about to experience peace and happiness that he's missed for a while. All my friends who have gone down the "simplification" road (pay off the mortgage, grow food, get a bicycle, etc) positively glow with happiness when I visit them. They are calmer and happier than the people I do business with wearing a suit and tie. Calmer and happier by a LONG SHOT. Kill your TV. Particularly if you have children. I still believe in newspapers, and teaching your kids to read and get involved.

[CamB]

Originally posted by fintstone
Actually it is just the opposite..the rest of the world, aided by liberal apologists, blame the world's problems on the US.

We did take responsibility. When the world (UN) gave Saddam an ultimatum..then either didn't have the nerve to follow through or was blinded by their own financial interests....the US took responsibility....defeated a dangerous, sadistic regime in spite of the whining crybabies...and are now mopping up the remnants. The war has been very short and cost few lives...and Iraq is already better off and on their way to a democratic government.

Wow, awesome piece of fiction.

This is a completely one-eyed view of the US/UK invasion, and bears only a passing resemblance to the actual chain of events.

The UN wanted to keep going with inspections and didn't want the US to invade when it did. That wasn't the US "taking responsibility" - it is more like seizing the initiative. I realise you might see that as a positive... but it isn't.

Never forget that "defeating a dangerous, sadistic regime" was third and a long way trailing on a list of three reasons to invade Iraq, and the other two reasons - the ones the world were seeking more surety on - have proven pretty unfounded.

And finally, this bit:

"The war has been very short and cost few lives...and Iraq is already better off and on their way to a democratic government. "

It isn't finished, I don't consider the number of lives lost as few, and I see more anarchy than democracy for the moment, and a long road to the latter.

[ronin]

sorry Cam, no dice. interesting how you start to make hints at a "chain of events" and conveniently skip the previous 12 years leading up to the invasion. fint pretty much hit the nail right on. we've been going through this crap with Saddam for over a decade and it definitely was time to say enough is enough. and if you're worried about anarchy, it's not coming from the US, but the Iraqis

[ronin]

Originally posted by CamB
ronin - you have no idea. The rest of the world pretty much ranges from dissappointed with the US to virulently pissed off (as a nation state - you guys are great people!).

everybody hates a winner