I was wrong abou Kerry

[fintstone]

According to this article, apparently I was wrong about Kerry manipulating the system to leave Vietnam early. I apologise.

Veterans to Kerry:
Stop using photo
Ex-colleagues say adoption by campaign 'a total fraud'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: May 18, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

A group of more than 220 veterans who served in Sen. John Kerry's swift-boat unit in Vietnam are calling on the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate to stop unauthorized use of their images in national campaign advertising.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has declared the Massachusetts senator "unfit to be commander in chief," says 11 of the 20 officers in one photo Kerry uses have signed a letter condemning him.

Most of the veterans in this 1969 photo don't want John Kerry to use it in his presidential campaign.

The photo, which includes Kerry, was taken on the island of An Thoi Jan. 22, 1969.

"Of the remaining eight officers in the photo, two are deceased and four don't want any involvement," the veterans said in a statement. Only two of the 20 are believed to support Kerry.

One veteran in the photo, William Shumadine, said, "His use of a photograph with his 19 comrades with knowledge that 11 of them condemn him and six who cannot or do not want to be involved is a complete misrepresentation to the public and a total fraud."

The swift-boat group says it has no political affiliation and insists its sole purpose is to "bring the truth about John Kerry's service to the American public."

Among its members is virtually the entire chain of command to which Kerry reported and a large majority of peers who served during his four-month stay in Vietnam.

The group says it has received more than 2 million hits on its website.

"John Kerry will find that the truth is hard to contain," said the group's chairman, Admiral Roy Hoffman. "It's been evident in the overwhelming support we have received over the last two weeks. We're grateful to the veterans and Americans who are rallying behind us."

At the group's May 4 press conference, Hoffman, who headed Kerry's Coastal Division 11, said Kerry was seen by colleagues as a self-serving, "loose cannon" who came only to launch a political career.

Hoffman said Kerry "arrived in country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future."

"He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard to specific tactical assignments," Hoffman said. "He was a loose cannon."

A swift boat officer who served with Kerry, Thomas Wright, says he was one of three colleagues who told the future senator to leave Vietnam because of misbehavior and a poor attitude.

Wright says the bad behavior got to the point where he no longer wanted Kerry in his boat group. So, at Wright's request, his divisional commander assigned Kerry to another group.

Then Wright and like-minded boat officers took matters into their own hands, according to John B. Dwyer, a Vietnam veteran and military historian writing in the online magazine American Thinker.

"When he got his third Purple Heart, three of us told him to leave," Wright said, according to Dwyer. "We knew how the system worked and we didn't want him in Coastal Division 11.

"Kerry didn't manipulate the system," he continued, "we did."

[techweenie]

So Kerry's Bronze Star and Silver Star are meaningless?

Or is this just echoes of the old pro-Vietnam/anti-Vietnam divide?

I guess it was better to just avoid going there at all, like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld... aw heck, you can get the entire deck of cards at:

http://www.chickenhawkcards.com/

[RickM]

Pretty sad that most of his division are pretty much standing up against him. He apparently made some impression.

I do find it odd that one would go to war to initiate their political career.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by fintstone
A swift boat officer who served with Kerry, Thomas Wright, says he was one of three colleagues who told the future senator to leave Vietnam because of misbehavior and a poor attitude.

misbehavior and poor attitude while serving in Vietnam? Say it ain't so...I can't believe anyone would behave like that...

[techweenie]

"misbehavior and poor attitude while serving in Vietnam?"

I guess it's better to misbehave and have a poor attitude in the Texas National Guard.

[Rot 911]

From an anti-Kerry website, but interesting nonetheless:
http://www.crushkerry.com/article124.html

John Kerry signed an agreement as part of his naval officer commission to serve at least 3 years on active duty and the remainder of his obligated 6 year service in the Ready Reserves. Ready Reserves are those who must attend drills.

It bears repeating: Kerry obligated himself to at least 3 years active duty, and the remainder of his 6 year obligation in the Ready (not Standby) Reserves.

He further agreed that while in the Ready Reserves (from discharge to 1972) he would perform no less than 48 drills per year and up to 17 active duty days per year, or alternatively, 30 active duty days per year.

None of Kerry’s released records shows any evidence of his performing these Ready Reserve obligated days in 1970 through 1972, after which he was transferred to the Inactive Reserves. The only Performance of Duty form released covers 1966. There should be one for every year.

Nor is there any excusal from drilling status in his records, or alternatively, pay and attendance records indicating that he performed any drills in 1970-72 as required of a Ready Reservist.

It was George Bush's alleged non-performance of his obligated reserve duty that caused all the furor last February, yet Kerry apparently cannot show his performance of his obligated Reserve duty.

[speeder]

Expect a lot more of this low-flying horse***** this summer. This has Karl Rove's fingerprints all over it. He can't defend Bush's performance, so it's "slander Kerry" time.

[techweenie]

"Expect a lot more of this low-flying horse***** this summer. This has Karl Rove's fingerprints all over it. He can't defend Bush's performance, so it's "slander Kerry" time"

Right. They can't deal with the Bronze Star and Silver Star, so they focus on the third purple heart.

[djmcmath]

Maybe I'm a bit disenchanted. My room-mate was put up for a COM just recently, but was rejected because he's resigning. His chain of command pushed hard for it, and his peers helped write the nomination. Ouch. One of the other guys in my wardroom was a complete slacker, but attracted positive attention from the chain of command. For reasons that are beyond all of us who work with him, he managed to earn 3 personal awards (NAMs).

Maybe the military was better back then, and maybe I just have some particularly cynical views on military awards, but I'd give a little more weight (a little) to the words of the people a guy served with than to the awards in his record. I'm not saying W's a war hero, I'm just trying to put the data in perspective.


Dan

[techweenie]

Thanks for your considered response.

In combat, awards are thrown around like confetti. I think I read there were three times as many medals awarded in the Grenada attack as there were participants.

So I can agree with some of what you say. However, other guys who served with Kerry are actively campaigning for him, so this isn't exactly the 'everyone who knew him' kind of thing the Republicans are pushing. I can get you some links, if you like.

I'm just looking for some balance here. 'Not observed on base' is not equivalent to a Silver Star. Using connections to get into the National Guard vs. volunteering for Vietnam is not equivalent.

It's reasonable to argue the relative merits of serving your country and whether it provides useful underpinnings to the job of being commander in chief.

But let's not argue that staying stateside and reporting (or not) to training is as meritorious as putting yourself in harm's way for your country.

[fintstone]

I don't understand. The democrats elected a draft dodger for two terms and claimed that military service was not important...now that they have a candidate that served briefly, a few months service is supposed to innoculate their candidate from any scrutiny for what he has said and done in the following 30 years..

[911pcars]

"He further agreed that while in the Ready Reserves...."

Kurt,
Back then, (I was a draft dodger in the reserves for 6 yrs.), those who served active duty, Nam or otherwise, were not obligated to attend the balance of their 6 year commitment. So Kerry was not alone in this regard.

Regarding the group photo; I don't see a problem with people in this military group wanting to stay apolitical. That's their prerogative. OTOH, did these individuals say they were all voting for Bush? Don't think so.

Sherwood

[djmcmath]

Good points, tech. Nice trivia about Grenada, too. Would you mind posting a link or two?

FWIW, I wasn't necessarily saying "Bush is a demigod because Kerry's comrades are badmouthing him," but was merely noting that I've seen even in my short time a number of totally meaningless awards.

Dan

[techweenie]

" don't understand. The democrats elected a draft dodger for two terms and claimed that military service was not important..."

You *don't* understand or you *won't* understand? First Clinton was not a "draft dodger", as you'd know if you did any reading on the subject in the past 11 years.

But it's more convenient to parrot demagogues than read an entire page of text, isn't it.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/politics/clintondraft.asp

If Clinton had posed in a flight suit, he'd have been hypoctitical.

If a candidate makes his military (or business) record a campaign issue, then every fact discovered in examining it is fair game.

[techweenie]

djmcmath: "Good points, tech. Nice trivia about Grenada, too. Would you mind posting a link or two? "

A quick scan brought up a page by Hackworth:

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView?file=Hackworth_093003.htm

It appears that medals are becoming progressively less meaningful... :-(

[lendaddy]

But but but..lol

[fintstone]

Originally posted by techweenie
" don't understand. The democrats elected a draft dodger for two terms and claimed that military service was not important..."

You *don't* understand or you *won't* understand? First Clinton was not a "draft dodger", as you'd know if you did any reading on the subject in the past 11 years.

But it's more convenient to parrot demagogues than read an entire page of text, isn't it.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/politics/clintondraft.asp

I did read the entire article you posted. It made a very good case that Bill Clinton was indeed a "draft dodger" although they make a good case that he was not a felon...mostly by circumstance.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by techweenie
[BIf a candidate makes his military (or business) record a campaign issue, then every fact discovered in examining it is fair game. [/B]

We finally agree. Bush did not make his service a campaign issue, but Kerry did. Let's examine Kerry's military record closely and ignore Bush's.

[lendaddy]

These guys are pretty smart. They keep releasing this stuff little by little so Kerry cannot ignore or deflect it. This is huge really. The guy won't shut up with the"I'm a war hero" stuff. Then to find out the vast majority of his peers didn't even want him in their unit? WOW. What an idiot! Someone dropped the ball over at Kerry camp. I can see the ads now, ouch!

[techweenie]

"I did read the entire article you posted. It made a very good case that Bill Clinton was indeed a "draft dodger" although they make a good case that he was not a felon...mostly by circumstance."

LOL.

Maybe you could use a definition:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Draft-dodger